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Does everybody here quote out of context solely to make a point?! I SAID, Everything I have seen- the draft made available elsewhere, for example- tells me there is nothing to get upset about

Also, earlier posts from Professor Thompson make it very clear how limited any inclusive wording is. Compared to western ideas of inclusiveness, our is all but unrecognizable.

As to value judgments on the new liturgy, I prefer to see light at the end of the tunnel, and think it is inappropriate and out of line without firsthand knowledge, involvement, and experience with its use to act as though I know all about it. I should not judge what I have not been privileged to work with, and even when I do get to use the materials, because I am a faithful Byzantine Catholic, I will do my best to make it work. In the meantime, there is no way to resolve all the concerns here one way or the other, because those who could resolve them are not bloggers here. (I must be seeing too much Glenn Beck nowadays. Gotta go.)

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Compared to western ideas of inclusiveness, our is all but unrecognizable.
Sure, compared to the Latins we look like Girl Scouts. But compare us to something more, say Orthodoxy, and we look silly. Many Latins will tell you we should aspire to more than they have. Inclusive language has no place in the Divine Liturgy.


To add to Michael Cerularius' list:

There's nothing historic about still having altar rails.

There's nothing historic about the supression of liturgical hours.

There's nothing historic about using musical instruments during the Divine Liturgy.

There's nothing historic about combining the Divine Liturgy with other services, like marriage, funeral and vespers.

There's nothing historic about not distributing the antidoron.

There's nothing historic about not having a curtain behind the Royal Doors.

There's nothing historic about separating communion & chrismation from Holy Baptism.

There's nothing historic about Holy Water Fonts for blessing ourselves.

There's nothing historic about ignoring the rubrics and leaving the Royal Doors open for the entire Divine Liturgy.

There's nothing historic about not using hot water during the consecration.

There's nothing historic about not using precut particles, instead of proper proskomedia.

There's nothing historic about not incensing the four corners of the church instead of just going up the center aisle.

There's nothing historic about completing the Great Entrance as a procession around the church.


All of these have taken place at churches in the Cleveland-area -- as I have seen them with my own eyes. It is unfortunate that people are offended by the truth.

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This thread is straying off topic by the last several posts. The laundry list provided by Michael and Stephanie is long indeed, but most do not deal with the proposed revisions of the Divine Liturgy in which this forum section is dedicated to. Rather these have been problems that have plagued the Byzantine Catholic Church for quite a long time, most going back over several generations.

I am also going to caution posters to keep their emotions in check while posting. This goes for a couple of posters in the last several posts. I understand that changes stir emotions, especially when several different issues are being discussed at the same time. Certain posts are bordering on judgementalism of other posters and this will not be tolerated. If the matters can not be discussed in a civil manner, then further action will have to be taken.

I am also as a follow up and remind posters also to be accurate with their posting information. This has also been noted to becoming a problem. If it is not accurate then it will be edited out.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Maybe all isn't quiet on the Eastern front? biggrin

I've pretty much resigned myself to the inevitable that this new Litrugy is going through.

As I've written before, it's too bad that rather than moving closer to our Greek Catholic brethern , i.e. Ukrainians and Romanians, we are moving farther away and going it alone with a new rescension.

Since it is inevitable, the real discussion for me now is what to do? Stay or go? If I go, what Greek Catholic rite should I go to. Much prayer, reflection, and thought is needed over the next coming months.

Too sad.

If I do go, the bottom line is that I'm not really leaving the Byzantine Catholic Church of America, the Byzantine Catholic Church of America is leaving me.

Monomakh

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Originally posted by Michael Cerularius:

Maybe if there was some education and history taught to our people there wouldn't be so much individual piety and more appropiate practice would be occurring.

Who will lead us to this?

mc [/QB]
Last Fall, we were in one of the NW Indiana parishes for a study session on the Divine Liturgy. Lots of questions. People honestly don't know our past. One Baba was adamant that we Rusyn Greek Catholics were never Orthodox! eek

We should figure out who we are before we recast the DL.

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We should figure out who we are before we recast the DL.
Yes, that is the point of my post. If we can't reclaim who we are by first removing the Latinizations, how can we be "better" Byzantines with a recast DL? In my eyes, they go hand-in-hand. You can't move in new furniture until you clear the room of the old. At this point, we're just rearranging.

SK

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Originally posted by Monomakh:
Maybe all isn't quiet on the Eastern front? biggrin

I've pretty much resigned myself to the inevitable that this new Litrugy is going through.

As I've written before, it's too bad that rather than moving closer to our Greek Catholic brethern , i.e. Ukrainians and Romanians, we are moving farther away and going it alone with a new rescension.

Since it is inevitable, the real discussion for me now is what to do? Stay or go? If I go, what Greek Catholic rite should I go to. Much prayer, reflection, and thought is needed over the next coming months.

Too sad.

If I do go, the bottom line is that I'm not really leaving the Byzantine Catholic Church of America, the Byzantine Catholic Church of America is leaving me.

Monomakh
This is the same thing I've been thinking. We still have Romanian, Melkite, and Ukrainian. Kind of like being RC. Polish, Slovak, Italian, Irish, German, Puerto Rican, it's all RC. We are the same,except our bishops feel the need to be different. What to do, what to do....

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There will always be room for individual piety no matter what changes may occur.
Doesn't it seem a little odd to relegate a proper recitation of the Creed to individual piety?

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Also, earlier posts from Professor Thompson make it very clear how limited any inclusive wording is. Compared to western ideas of inclusiveness, our is all but unrecognizable.
But we will be doing exactly what the Roman Church in the United States is doing, ie, mistranslating the Creed, ie, ignoring the word "anthropos", ie, removing the word "men" from the Creed.

Miserere nobis omnipotens Deus...

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Doesn't it seem a little odd to relegate a proper recitation of the Creed to individual piety?

I don't know. There are deceased who are not officially saints or blessed, but who individuals call on in prayer, just not in a parish-sponsored service. smile

Who is going to know if someone says the creed slightly differently from those around them? No one is assigned to monitor as far as I know. There are even some folks who don't say it out loud today, and some who don't know it by heart.

There are officially sanctioned practices, etc., but people may not necessarily do all of them for a variety of reasons, especially being human and imperfect.

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Who is going to know if someone says the creed slightly differently from those around them? No one is assigned to monitor as far as I know. There are even some folks who don't say it out loud today, and some who don't know it by heart.
Perhaps the saints in heaven, the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils who formulated the Creed, will notice the truths we are abandoning.

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There are officially sanctioned practices, etc., but people may not necessarily do all of them for a variety of reasons, especially being human and imperfect.
I think I get the logic here. We won't officially say all of the Creed (for political reasons) but being human and imperfect, we are forgiven.

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With regard to truths being abandoned, I am not so sure. There are those who will maintain that the Truth is still there in a revised creed and not being abandoned, that the wordsmithing does not alter the intent, but is a more accurate reflection of community understanding in our time. Regardless, at some point each of us has to trust in our hierarchy, assuming we believe what we say we do about the Church itself, and practice obedience. Hopefully, that obedience can be reconciled with whatever change comes about. Hopefully.

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Originally posted by Jim:
With regard to truths being abandoned, I am not so sure. There are those who will maintain that the Truth is still there in a revised creed and not being abandoned, that the wordsmithing does not alter the intent, but is a more accurate reflection of community understanding in our time. Regardless, at some point each of us has to trust in our hierarchy, assuming we believe what we say we do about the Church itself, and practice obedience. Hopefully, that obedience can be reconciled with whatever change comes about. Hopefully.
I wonder when our Church will start practicing obedience to Tradition?

Jim wrote:"There are those who will maintain that the Truth is still there in a revised creed and not being abandoned..."

Those people would be wrong.

Community understanding? Revised Creed?

What's the purpose of Tradition if you think we can have revised Creeds?

Are you saying that if I put up a sign that says 'Danger: Man-Eating Sharks" that the community understanding would be that it is safe for women?

Monomakh

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revised Creeds

I think that there are those who believe that wordsmithing does not necessarily change the content of the creed itself, so they may not be willing to say that they are revising the creed- at least not so far that it can cause some heretical doctrine to spring up all over again.

Here's another example (not from the revised liturgy): there are groups, including some Orthodox, that use "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" instead of "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" in the Lord's Prayer. Is one true and correct, while the other is in error? Who decides, and how do they know, one way or the other, which one to choose?

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It is becoming painfully clear that in observation of these goings on, that the Byz Cath church, is moving further from her roots in Orthodoxy. If Tradition means nothing , then , just go protestant yourself, forget the Traditions, live as you want, chuck your icons, and totally westernise...! mik

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Glory To Jesus Christ! Slava na wiki!

I do not wish to become alarmed, yet, it is troubling to me to hear that ANY revisions in The Divine Liturgy would even be a consideration! I am an RC who is seriously thinking of switching rites to The Ukrainian Byzantine Church, BECAUSE of The Divine Liturgy remaining intact, as to preserve the faith, and the faith not being endangered. Latinizations are a problem; yet, these are externals that CAN be removed, as said above, by educating the people in history and tradition. I personally have seen a major shift towards orthodoxy in my area, with younger priests who are interested in bringing back and preserving The Eastern Rites and traditions. There are only a few churches, yet, Latinizations are slowly being phased out (but for those pews...).

I have suffered along with my RC mem and women since our Latin Rite was replaced; it has sufferd changes over the centuries, yet, I cannot think any of those were anything but for the faithful to dispel heresies. As of Vatican II, the door was opened for our wreckage.

I love The Uk-Byz Church, and you can call me an escapist, and you would be correct. Please remember that a person not only escapes from what he perceives to be a bad situation, but moreso, to run TOWARDS an good one.

I pray that no major changes happen; there may/may not be an end in sight to them, as what has happened to the Latin Mass in The Roman Rite. Perhaps it is best just to wait and see what ACTUALLY happens, before we all jump ship and start crying like chicken little - I just think prayers are in order EVERYDAY for The Eastern Churches and The Pope. That IS what we CAN do. God love you all! - Gv

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