www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The Nutshell Version, Please

I never received $30,000 in salary though the utilities and mortgages were paid by the Church. For further discussion, since this thread is really not about budgets, I encourage your observations on a thread I've begun in Town Hall on Church Expenditures.

CDL

No. You should not have. It is not that long ago that priest salaries plus stipend did not equal 30k in our Metropolia. And some of those "do nothings" that we speak so blandly about in our day to day critiques, did not even take mass stipends and they tithed to their own parishes and gave to the poor. Now they are old, and poor and we spit on them with our words and our deeds from a great distance, but believe me they know.

Bite your tongue and if you must refer to the wealthy ones then do it by name or parish, then look hard, and you will find there something other than a priest salary buying mulitple toys, IF that is the case at all.

Eli

Eli,

We are on the same page here. I have yet to meet an independently wealthy priest who fleeces his members. Never.

CDL

The attitudes and behaviors toward clergy, on this issue of money, among our faithful has often been to the contrary. That kind of false presumption, along with gossip has undermined the spiritual lives of the folks in the pews,and weakened parish and family life. A robust Church can manage such things rather adroitly. To a faltering one it is guaranteed devastation.

You and I would probably agree on just about everything if you had just a bit more exposure and talked to a broader range of priests across the Metropolia, and valued the role of the ethnic Church in terms of forging a path that is clearly eastern Catholic and not something other.

We speak of universalizing the eastern Churches. We enthusiastically shake a finger and accuse "Phyletism!" all the while forgetting the importance of ecclisiastical anthropology in the spiritual life and history of a people or peoples.

You could take any of those Methodist churches that you talk about. Teach them a liturgy and a chant. Give them all the trappings of the east and a pre-packaged prayer life too. And for as long as they remained together they would never be eastern Catholic. They'd be something entirely else.

When I came into the Church it was like asking to be adopted into another family in a totally different culture and hoping that somebody would say 'c'mon!' Several somebody's did just that for me and will always be grateful.

Some of us are asking our Church: Do you wish for us to become something entirely else?

You have a way to go yet before I would not be able to detect your Protestant roots, Daniel. You are not yet knee-jerk Catholic in your thinking.

That is not a condemnation. That is an observation.

These things take a great deal of time. One might say the same thing about me as an eastern Catholic. I am not quite there yet. In some ways, you and I will always stand apart, but only on some things and not in any truly soul-damaging way.

God bless you, Carson Daniel.

Eli

Eli,

I thank you for your kind words. However, I think this conversation would be more fruitful if we stuck to issues rather than trying to analyze each other motives. That I am a convert from Protestantism is easily discerned by the fact that I've given my conversion testimony and I've referred to my background on occsion. That my ideas about evangelization and Church growth are in opposition to what I've learned in the BC Church is demonstrably false. They are the ideas that existed in my present parish prior to my arrival and continue to part of the evangelization efforts of said parish.

One distinctive addition to my ideas is the idea of the way beauty itself is part of the evangelistic life of the Church. I knew that in principal but see it in fact at Annunciation.

That I will never be Eastern European or Middle Eastern is rathr a given. But I am Eastern Christian from my Patristic studies all the way down to the joy I experience at worship.

It may be of some use to talk about our ethnic deficiencies but I doubt it has much value.

CDL

Perhaps you could become a naturalized Albanian?

This is a joke - it is not intended seriously!

Fr Serge

I am afraid we have stepped out into a bed of prickley pear. Humor is a lost cause at this point. Perhaps on some other later day. One can hope. :p

I am an adopted Serb. I was adopted by an Irish monk who was raised by Serbian monks. So I am twice removed. Actually I've been removed far more often than that but if you don't tell, I won't.

Eli

I guess that makes me an adopted Hungarian or perhaps Ukie since my pastor is Czech and Hungarian and my God father, not Italian, but Ukie.

CDL

One of Thomas Merton's strongest areas of interest and where he shone brightest as a teacher, I think, was in his teachings on the Catholic understanding of beauty. A much denser and more formal Catholic work can be found in the central corpus of the theologian, Hans Urs von Balthasar. The main body runs to nine volumes, in case you were thinking of taking the short course. And oddly enough he has a little book on living the evangelical life.

I was rather hoping you would not put this twist on what I said earlier. Can't be helped I suppose. Perhaps some other time we can have a better conversation on the subject of the importance of the anthropology of the eastern Churches, putting them and their peoples at the center of the dialogue, rather than our feelings about having to adopt into the mix.

Eli

Independently wealthy is in the eye of the beholder...give someone $20k a year with no expenses and that is someone I would consider independently wealthy. Thousands of dollars and no expenses. I don't know anyone who would turn away that sweet deal. Except for the fact that someone would have to give up life as married man with wife and God willing...children

I have seen priests who are not afraid to live in a "common man's rectory" and I have seen those who move into the same rectory and don't think twice about dropping $100k "to make it liveable" (only liveable if liveable means a palace with only the finest)I have seen that numerous times!!!! That to me is fleecing the faithful. I also do know of a priest (who will remain nameless since he is deceased) who did collect automobiles. The money comes from somewhere. I do not mean to imply theft from the Church. I simply that points to the extravagance some can live with when they have no personal expenses.

I apologize to everyone this is not the purpose of this thread but things can not get thrown out and be unanswered.

No priest lives without paying expenses of some kind. A huge percentage of our old priests spent some part of their income either helping to build or maintain a parish, and did not and do not get, to this day, so much as a thank you. In fact, some might say of our clergy that 'no good deed has gone unpunished.'

As I said before it is only recently that a priest's salary and expences reached the 20k limit. For all those years of not keeping up with inflation, do you account for their losses in the lean years, or not?

I know OF the exceptioinal few. I have never met any of them. You seem to speak as if they were the norm. That is not respectful of those whose sacrifices have gone just as thankless as those of the members of Holy Trinity who now have no real home.

Eli

Eli,

I still agree with you. Is the notion that priests should be in poverty, even their families, part of the Eastern European anthropology of which you speak? Chris may have seen priests that can make 20k turn into 100k but I never have.

Chris,

What is included with the phrase "all of the expenses". Does the Church pay for the priests food? How about his cars and furniture?

What are the things priests typically pay for from the stipend they are given? Would there be enough to support a family?

CDL

Many priests live on not very much indeed. The Parish Priest of the UGCC where I go gets $500 a month. I thing with conversion rates of $1USA =$1.30Aus. So he does have to watch his cents very closely and the Christmas and Easter gift envolope is very handy. I know the money one Christmas a few years ago was used to replace bald tyres on his car. Dont forget the health insurance.

Let me first say, as a former candidate to the priesthood (we're going back 15-20 years) for the eparchy of Passaic...I have seen this in parishes in the Eparchy of Passaic and in my travels in the Eparchy of Parma. I have spent ALOT of time in Rectories...I was a quintesential "Rectory Rat"... A priest can get along with essentially not paying for food...or at least very minimal...why do I say that...a good priest often has invites to parishioners houses, parties, etc...(if they are liked - I cringe when I think someone in charge of leading people to Christ not being liked how can they do their job? How can they lead if nobody will follow?) I can think of 2 specific priests (one in Parma (now deceased) and one in Passaic (don't know what ever happened to him we lost contact at least 10 years ago) who had routine schedules to eat every meal (at least the one in Parma was every meal) out with others picking up the tab...diner in the AM...bar & grill in the afternoon and dinner was normally at a parishioners house...I saw it I lived it in different parts of the Metropolia. If you had to make something since you didn't have somewhere scheduled...find a parishioner to take out and use "petty cash" that the parish allows for entertaining...

I have seen it too many times in the BCC and not simply 1 or 2 isolated incedences...It seems to be more the norm than the exception...think about it...it makes sence...otherwise the celebate priest would be home alone every day/night...for their sanity they need to do that...and as a priest they should be out with the people...

My experience is their car is their only real expense...although the parish picks up insurance...the parish unfortunately picks up the tab for "Fr. Leadfoot with apparently the numerous speeding tickets" which raise the insurance costs...Furniture goes in the rectory so it stays in the rectory...I have only seen one instance of a priest purchasing his own furniture and taking it with him...so furniture is also a parish expense...Which in the days of no longer having "trustees" minding the finances and wishes of the parishoners who give the money allows for hand picked "lackys" to simply give Fr. a blank check (literally) for whatever he needs...(Give me back the days when I saw trustees getting things repaired and asking (and not granting) why do you need that new refridgerator the one you have is only 3 years old? If a good case could be made they got it (excessive repairs in that period of time, etc...) not "well I want to redue the kitchen and this will not fit in with the plans I have and what I want...I remember when the days when the trustee would tell the priest in some not so nice words to "go jump in a lake". And they lived with it...Unfortunately, now there appear to be so many parishes that have those handpicked yes men they live above the means...and that is the main financial detriment to the parish...

The key question...would it be enough to support a family...with the much higher amounts that appear to be paid in the BCC over the last few years...
I know, again I live in Fairfield County CT, (I only state that so as to give no one the impression that I live in some backwater little community where you could live on practically nothing)I have a wife, daughter (5 years old) and twins on the way...if you gave me 30K a year with no insurance expenses and removed my mortgage we could live comfortably. If not I see no issue with a Pani taking a job (full or part time to allow for nicer things just like two wage earners in every other family - the priest is no different except the priest has the advantage of NO MORTGAGE and that is the key expense in most households) Some I know would say "your nuts"...If you don't live the "high life" but live simple and don't try to always keep up with the person next door...you could live just fine...

I'll see you and raise you. What you are describing is not the norm in the Byzantine Chuch. It is not even the norm in the Latin rite. Ask Father Bitsko. You seem to appreciate him as a priest. Ask him about the norm.

You are making the exceptions the rule, and that is very very unfair.

You know most of our people find it hard to believe that there are no housing and elder care provided for our priests. Why the chanceries collect money for priests every year, don't they?

Show me the elder care.

I am truly sorry to have to step up to your notes this way, Chris. I know that you have had a difficult time of things. But fair is fair and what you are doing here is not.

Eli