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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Originally posted by Hesychios:
A parish needs to add 6% to the core worshipping community every year in order to grow.
If you normally have about 70 laypersons in attendance, you will need to add four or five new committed worshippers this coming year to make up for losses and minimally grow.
If you normally have 200 laypersons in attendance, you will need to add twelve this coming year. There is no getting around it. (More is better, of course.)
Personally, I think it would be preferable if these new members were converts from Protestantism, agnosticism and atheism but more than likely they will have to be Latins who transfer in because Eastern Christians in North America don�t seem to have much of a knack for evangelism.
Why do I mention this here? Because if a parish is not already meeting these goals it is on the decline, and must eventually reverse the trend or close, that is the reality. Negative publicity and squabbling is going to leave a bad impression on the community at large. This is not good for the overall health of the church.
That means it may no longer matter what the text of the liturgy is like. This could be like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.
+T+
Michael Yep!!! Anen!!!
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Michael, This could be like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. The ship has been sinking for years. With the actions of the heirarchy they have already declared death to the Church. Rather than focus on evangelization they would rather push for Liturgical agendas. Like the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words." The heirarchy speaks of evangelization (in a small voice) yet their actions (i.e. Liturgical agendas, closing churches, etc...) speak volumes. The ONLY way to safe this sinking ship is to convence the Bishops that nothing is more important than living out and spreading the Gospel. Until that happens you will continue to see double digit declining numbers until no one is left. Carson daniel lauffer, Michael, etc... can't do this task on your own. You/I/we need support and direction from the top.
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I would think that the change in the wording of Liturgical texts is an innovation. There are , as I have observed, those who wish to infiltrate the ecclesiastical structure. I know a man who became Orthodox from evangelical protestantism and was almost scandalized when he realized the little that those in his parish put in the offering plate. He was used to giving about 10% of his gross income. It is sorry to see the loss of a parish. I was told by former Byz Cath the he left to the RCC for the squabbling and contention, self absorption of his previous parish's people. This leaves me sad to hear this. Evangelicals think they score a great victory when they convert a Traditional Christian...RCC/Byz Cath/Orthodox... to their sects. Been there done that. May God have mercy on us, Mik
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Are we going to be able to, in good conscience chant inclusive language? If so, how? Why? I would especially appreciate the input of our wonderful Clergy. 
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If priests got away with using "inclusive" language even though it had not been approved (such as at the Mt St Macrina and the Seminary) --and with impunity -- why can't a priest merely add the more correct wording, especially since the priest's prayers aren't supposed to be printed in the people's book?
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Originally posted by Hesychios:
A parish needs to add 6% to the core worshipping community every year in order to grow.
If you normally have about 70 laypersons in attendance, you will need to add four or five new committed worshippers this coming year to make up for losses and minimally grow.
If you normally have 200 laypersons in attendance, you will need to add twelve this coming year. There is no getting around it. (More is better, of course.)
Personally, I think it would be preferable if these new members were converts from Protestantism, agnosticism and atheism but more than likely they will have to be Latins who transfer in because Eastern Christians in North America don�t seem to have much of a knack for evangelism.
Why do I mention this here? Because if a parish is not already meeting these goals it is on the decline, and must eventually reverse the trend or close, that is the reality. Negative publicity and squabbling is going to leave a bad impression on the community at large. This is not good for the overall health of the church.
That means it may no longer matter what the text of the liturgy is like. This could be like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.
+T+
Michael A very good post ! I would add this: We cannot give what we do not have. For Eastern Christians, that means theosis. As we practice theosis, evangelization naturally grows out of theosis. That kind of evangelization doesn't require a program from the hierarchy; it just requires the Gospel. Then, we can respond to whatever the local needs are in our local situations. In sum, I think leadership for evangelization can only come most effectively from: first, in the human heart and by the grace of God and, second, at the parish level because that is where the needs for evangelization are and that is where the (potential) evangelizers are. -- John
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Has anyone leased or purchased any newspaper, magazine, or billboard advertising near any of the Cathedrals?
Perhaps a big "Glory to Jesus Christ!
Restore the Ruthenian Rescension!"
Billboard may aid the anti evil Liturgy campaign.
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Anyone got any money? 
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Originally posted by Lazareno:
If priests got away with using "inclusive" language even though it had not been approved (such as at the Mt St Macrina and the Seminary) --and with impunity -- why can't a priest merely add the more correct wording, especially since the priest's prayers aren't supposed to be printed in the people's book? Because someone will call the bishop [sound familiar?] and then the bishop will call Father and give him a direct order, or some variation of that through the chain of command [most likely it will not be a written order for there's nothing worse than a paper trail at tribunal time], then Father will try again to do the right thing, and someone will call the bishop [sound familiar?] and in cases of rebellious disobedience a priest may have his faculties removed and be removed from his parish or any position in the diocese and the bishop may refuse to release that priest so that he cannot legitimately go anywhere else, refuse to pay him, take his health insurance away and forefit his pension. Are you prepared to take in and support all disobedient priests trying to do the right thing by his flock? Which of his parishoners took in Father Dan or any of the priests in the Metropolia who were cut adrift over the long 20th century? Can you even name any of them? Do you have enough information to even begin to sift the just cases from the unjust cases? THAT is why Father cannot simply "do the right thing." When are we going to wake up to the reality that our canonical codes presume that the soul at the top of the chain of command is pure, and that has not proved to be the case in this country in any rite that I can think of at the moment. Well...maybe the Melkites and ACROD. But that is a very sad truth that is most often ignored, and anyone who says it is suspect at very least. Eli
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"Anyone got any money?" Not Yet, but hopefully in the next couple of months that will change. Anyone have any ideas on the prices to lease or purchase billboards near the Cathedrals?
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Originally posted by Elitoft: Originally posted by Lazareno:
[b] If priests got away with using "inclusive" language even though it had not been approved (such as at the Mt St Macrina and the Seminary) --and with impunity -- why can't a priest merely add the more correct wording, especially since the priest's prayers aren't supposed to be printed in the people's book?
Are you prepared to take in and support all disobedient priests trying to do the right thing by his flock?
Which of his parishoners took in Father Dan or any of the priests in the Metropolia who were cut adrift over the long 20th century? Can you even name any of them? Do you have enough information to even begin to sift the just cases from the unjust cases?
THAT is why Father cannot simply "do the right thing."
When are we going to wake up to the reality that our canonical codes presume that the soul at the top of the chain of command is pure, and that has not proved to be the case [ . . . ]
[/b]Interesting post. And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with it. But I am curious: (1) What do you propose, practically, for the Church overall as the solution to this problem ? (2) What, specifically, do you propose to the priests who are caught in this situation ? -- John
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Originally posted by harmon3110: Originally posted by Elitoft: [b] Originally posted by Lazareno:
[b] If priests got away with using "inclusive" language even though it had not been approved (such as at the Mt St Macrina and the Seminary) --and with impunity -- why can't a priest merely add the more correct wording, especially since the priest's prayers aren't supposed to be printed in the people's book? Because someone will call the bishop [sound familiar?] and then the bishop will call Father and give him a direct order, or some variation of that through the chain of command [most likely it will not be a written order for there's nothing worse than a paper trail at tribunal time], then Father will try again to do the right thing, and someone will call the bishop [sound familiar?] and in cases of rebellious disobedience a priest may have his faculties removed and be removed from his parish or any position in the diocese and the bishop may refuse to release that priest so that he cannot legitimately go anywhere else, refuse to pay him, take his health insurance away and forefit his pension. Are you prepared to take in and support all disobedient priests trying to do the right thing by his flock? Which of his parishoners took in Father Dan or any of the priests in the Metropolia who were cut adrift over the long 20th century? Can you even name any of them? Do you have enough information to even begin to sift the just cases from the unjust cases? THAT is why Father cannot simply "do the right thing." When are we going to wake up to the reality that our canonical codes presume that the soul at the top of the chain of command is pure, and that has not proved to be the case [ . . . ] [/b]
-- John [/b]Jesus Himself didn't know what to do with the Pharisees, and they were instrumental in his passion and death, for he spoke against them in the assembly. So I only know that if enough die, spiritually, materially and phycically, someone will notice and there will, for a time, be redress. To do otherwise would be to become as those who are unjust for there is no perfect justice in man. If I were the King of the Forest, I'd change the way that we elect bishops, I'd change the pool from which we elect them, and I'd change the law to establish a safe place for priests and laity to beg for vindication from an unjust judge. Eli
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Ok, this is from a latin (at least at the moment  ) perspective... I for one am done fighting liturgically. I have been doing it for years now and can't deal with it anymore. If I go into a latin parish and they have a big band, are singing modern praise songs, have no icons/statues, etc. I just leave. If I'm at a solid parish then I will do what I can to fight for it, financially or otherwise, but I just can't deal with the abuse anymore. I have a few evangelism ideas: 1. Books -- Walk into a Borders and you see "Triumph", "Catholic Matters", etc. You can pick it up and read about the latin church. It would be nice to have some comparable Byzantine stuff. 2. Go to inter-Catholic/Christian events. Why not have an Eastern priest go to Theology on Tap? Maybe he could give a talk? Most people there are probably not even familiar with the East. College age kids can attend something like Inter Varsity Christian fellowship and reach out to protestants. 3. Web sites -- This is a great site, but let's see some more apologists running around a la Dave Armstrong. I think Todd bounces around to a bunch of boards and gets the word out. Perhaps some folks could start blogs, maybe even get an award or two so people take notice. Each of these seems relatively low-cost and useful. Just some thoughts... Matt
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Originally posted by Elitoft: Originally posted by Lazareno:
[b] If priests got away with using "inclusive" language even though it had not been approved (such as at the Mt St Macrina and the Seminary) --and with impunity -- why can't a priest merely add the more correct wording, especially since the priest's prayers aren't supposed to be printed in the people's book?
Are you prepared to take in and support all disobedient priests trying to do the right thing by his flock?
Which of his parishoners took in Father Dan or any of the priests in the Metropolia who were cut adrift over the long 20th century? Can you even name any of them? Do you have enough information to even begin to sift the just cases from the unjust cases?
THAT is why Father cannot simply "do the right thing."
When are we going to wake up to the reality that our canonical codes presume that the soul at the top of the chain of command is pure, and that has not proved to be the case in this country in any rite that I can think of at the moment. Well...maybe the Melkites and ACROD. But that is a very sad truth that is most often ignored, and anyone who says it is suspect at very least.
Eli [/b]I am not familiar with Catholic Canon Law, but in the Orthodox Church, if a bishop espouses, teaches or implements heresy, it is incumbent upon the priesthood to disregard his teachings and for the Church to depose him him. Now not having seen this new translation, I really cannot comment, other than to say that "Chelovekolyubets" translates as "Lover of mankind." Now if this translation contain errors that are heretical in nature, you do have precedence to fix it. But please don't fall into the sin of Congregationalism and assume to tell the Bishops what to do. Present your viewpoints from within the Church RESPECTFULLY! Have a priest who is sympathetic with your cause review the texts for errors. No priest, worthy of the title will espouse heresy, whether they take his pension or no. Likewise, no bishop wants to be deposed as a heretic. It sounds like all parties have to sit back, look at the proposed changes and civilly discuss what exactly is being proposed and is it correct. The Russian Church in this country had been infected with the sin of Congrgationalism in 1948, and it resulted in a Church wide schism. Alexandr
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Sorry, I wrote 1948 and it was really 1946.
Alexandr
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