www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The New Divine Liturgy as a Catalyst for Real Renewal

Since a new Divine Liturgy is being proposed, why not take the opportunity to return our Church fully to our Eastern Christian spirituality.

Here are some ideas (Not in any order):

1.) Pull all the pews out of our church; benches along the walls for those who must sit
2.) Real icon screens for all our churches
3.) Vespers and matins in all parishes
4.) Curtains behind the Holy Doors
5.) No more pre-cut prosphora
6.) Activate minor orders
7.) Support monasticism
8.) Encourage tithing
9.) Catechesis for adults
10.) Restore our Rescension

No better time than the present, I'd say. I can't see waiting around until the metropolia disappears. Have we invited more than one speaker? What about a date? Is this "Whiting II"?

CDL

"Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em, 'certainly I can!' - and get busy and find out how to do it."
Theodore Roosevelt
1858-1919, Twenty-Sixth U.S. President

1. More easily said than done in this Westernised society. Even the Cathedrals in Uzhorod and Muckachevo have pews!
2. Most definitely needed!!! Especially for those churches that were built without them deliberately!
3. This will work only if we have enough cantors to sing these liturgies and priests willing to serve them. There is a shortage of qualified cantors who know how to do matins, but that too can and will change.
4. We wouldn't want to look too Orthodox now...
5. Agreed.
6. (sigh) Ahhhh, if only our Bishops would....
7. Support from the laity, YES. Show our Bishops we do care about monastacism! We should also support our seminary.
8. Not only encourage tithing, show what tithing does for our church in a postitive light.
9. This is an area we desperately need to focus on! If there is adult education, children will be more likely to attend ECF classes.
10. I'll be quiet on my personal thoughts on this one. Yes, to restoring and maintaining our recension, though it has changed much in the last century.

Something is not right here. Re-construct/Re-introduce iconostas, remove pews, and other Eastern practices but then accepta a liturgy that in some ways is a de-construction, and a watering down.

The new Liturgy may be a catalyst for change, but not in a more authentic orthodox Eastern direction.

The New Mass of the Romans was a catalyst for other changes: round sanctuaries, expulsion of the tabernacle from the sanctuary, un-sacred music, altar girls, etc.

Dear John,
I like it already. Let somebody else make compromises! Meanwhile, you're always welcome in Dublin!

But let me alter your final item, and add another:

your final item; NO ABBREVIATIONS!

Additional item; Study the Ruthenian Recension - where did it come from, what are its sources, and to what extent do the books published in the nineteen-forties and fifties correspond to the authentic sources. If they don't, why is that?

Fr. Serge

Amen Fr. Serge.

Who says the new Liturgy is going to stay? I haven't anybody on this thread say that...

All points are excellent! Let's make our churches look like temples, not barns.

I hate to throw in some cautionary remarks but I would feel alot better moving ahead on this if we knew if the clergy have books and whether or not they were given the books. I'd also like to know who has them and who doesn't have them. Have some clergy received them and just put them on the shelves forgetting that they have them? Help me out here.

CDL

Perhaps Father Keleher and Father David can let us know how often the commission was contacted by Father Keleher prior to his book writing and how much Father Keleher was involved in the free distribution of his book. I don't see any problem with that but I need to read a clean breast of it and know if this was a last resort after attempts had been made to get responses from the bishops.

CDL

Dear Carson - yesterday I answered here on the forum the question of my own involvement in the free distribution of the book to the priests. I don't mind repeating the answer, but I do hope that three times in 24 hours will be sufficient:

I was not involved at all in the free distribution of the book, for the simplest of reasons: I did not and do not have the money to make it possible for me to do that. A benefactor agreed to fund it - not a penny of that money came through my hands, nor did I ask for a penny of money to come through my hands. I have not posted even one copy of the book to anyone. I have precisely one copy in the house here in Dublin, and since I've been making marginal notes, I'm not about to part with that copy.

Any priest of the Ruthenian Metropolia who did not receive a copy has only to report this to Stauropegion Press and a copy will be sent to him. For the address, check the thread on the book in the "books" category here on the forum.

Many people sought in vain to have serious discussion with the hierarchs and with the IELC. It was the resistance to such a discussion which moved people (including both clergy and laity) to send me a "Macedonian Call" for help. Actually, I had also received a previous draft, and was unwilling to become involved - but when the stonewalling continued and people whom I know, whose honesty I respect and whose integrity I trust appealed to me again, I felt it impossible to refuse.

Fr. Serge

By the way, as announced earlier this year: the 2006-2007 sessions of the Metropolitan Cantor Institute are largely devoted to the celebration of Vespers and Matins - in particularly, learning the services AND the melodies used to sing them.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Jeff, perhaps a way can be found to make the Vespers and Matins training materials used by the Cantor Institute available in a systematic way. There are many cantors like myself who cannot attend its sessions due to distance, cost, etc. (I assume that the materials will include catechetical advice, and not just be service booklets.)

Dear Jim,

Unfortunately, the materials provided by the Cantor Institute have chosen to use the proposed "revised Liturgy translation" for their texts, in advance of the bishop's permission, and so they are not approved for use in the parishes.

I suppose they may be used privately for study.

Nick

The text for the new Liturgy is just the tip of the ice-berg. Can you imagine what will happen to all the stichera of vespers?