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Dear Alex,

Amen to that!

Porter.

I second that Amen!

I was not implying that monasteries are absolutely useless. What I am saying stems from what the mysterious St. Dionysius says in his Ecclesiastical Hierarchies. While he describes the offices of the bishop, priest, and deacon as the offices of those who unify, illuminate, and purify, respectively, he calls the monastic one who "worries only about himself" (I'm paraphrasing), when discussing the monastic tonsure.

The fact that people would make an unconditional oblation of their life to Christ is a sign of a fervent Church. But monasticism has not always existed, nor should we expect anything from monks. The fact that they do the entire cycle of services must mean something before God, but they are human beings just like you and me.

Monks serve no other purpose in the Church other than to save their own souls, and that is a big enough thing in itself.

Would you care to expand your last paragraph a bit ?

Anhelyna

Dear Adversus,

To paraphrase St John of Damascus about St Dionysius: Just because one sparrow has sung does not mean that spring is here!

It is true that monastics pray for themselves. It is also true they pray for others.

But, from the standpoint of Eastern spirituality, the monastic is someone who fills himself/herself up to overflowing with Grace and then, and only then, this Grace flows over the rim, so to speak, onto others.

As St Seraphim of Sarov said, "Obtain the spirit of peace/holiness - then you will convert a thousand souls around you!

So IF you are saying the monastic's concern with his or her salvation and sanctification does NOT have a great impact on the Body of Christ that is the Church, then that is completely at variance with the teaching of the monastic Fathers of the East as a whole.

Alex

I significantly disagree.

What of the power of prayer? These monks intercede for the Church everyday.

What of the change that saints bring to the Church? How many people do monks bring closer to God through their spiritual guidance and prayers.

The monastics, I believe, are integral for a vibrant, dynamic, and holy Church.

I do not yet know much about the monastics of the east, but I know that this is true of the west.

Pope John Paul II referred to the monastics as the heart and engineroom of the Church.

Orthodox Catholic wrote:

"As St Seraphim of Sarov said, "Obtain the spirit of peace/holiness - then you will convert a thousand souls around you!"

I suppose that would be how I would expand on the last paragraph I wrote. Salvation of one's soul is no small thing.

While St. John Climacus wrote that angels are a light to the monks and the monks are a light to all men, I do not know if the "overflowing grace" point is accurate. As Cabasilas wrote in his Life in Christ, the main sources of grace are from Baptism and Holy Communion. I do not recall there being anything about monastic tonsure in there, but please correct me if I am wrong. Indeed, monastic tonsure is merely a reaffirmation of one's baptism, a baptism of repentance and the habit of mourning, as it is known in the Eastern Church. I'd like to see more sources on the "overflowing grace" point, though, for my own edification.

Dear Adversus,

You must also remember that the great missionaries that helped Christianize most of Europe were monastics. Names like Patrick of Ireland, Augustine of Cantebury, Saint Denys (Dennis) of Paris, Cyril and Methodius and Willabrordus of Utrecht to mention a few come to mind. Also the first missionaries that the Orthodox brought to the New World (Alaska) were eight monastics from Varlaam Monastery.

If my memory is also correct, monastics help pioneer higher education, i.e. the university. Before you minimalize the contributions of monasticism and its involvement in evangelism, I think you need to look at the above examples.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

There is another dimension to all of this: witness. Monks give up everything in order to serve Jesus Christ. They hold nothing back ion their kenosis. Hence, what the others were talking about: their plerosis is overflowing. But, that overflowing of plerosis is not �just� in prayer. The overflowing of their plerosis is also by the monks' ability to witness and counsel theosis to the rest of us. This comes from an exceptionally deep and total level of their being -- because the monks have been deified to a deeper and more total degree. Thus, the monks can serve as powerful witnesses and counselors to the non-monastics. This is more than being a role model. This is being a skilled spiritual therapist, a skilled assistant to Christ the Divine Doctor in administering the cure for the sick soul, the Gospel. Monasteries, especially in the Eastern Church, are spiritual hospitals. They are also spiritual academies. In both senses, monks can teach theosis to the rest of us because, by the grace of God and the prayers of the Theotokos, it is theosis that they spend their whole vocation working on. They pray and labor not just for themselves; they spend themselves also, perhaps mostly, for us.

-- John

One has only to look in the west to the contribution of St. Benedict and his monks not only in monastic endeavors, but to their vital work in preserving much of the academic and literary heritage of the known world.

Father Anthony is quite right. One doesn't even have to look very far at all in history. For the West I'll start with the Charlier Brothers and the school of Maslacq (which produced Dom Gerard Calvet of the current Traditional Latin monastery of Le Barroux).

Likewise in the East one has only to look at the monastery of St. Catherine's to see not only icons but architecture, books, etc. which were destroyed by both the iconoclasts as well as various hordes in the Byzantine AND Roman worlds.

Monasteries are absolutely crucial to the survival and thriving of Christianity. Period.
Deacon Diak

n.b. Thanks for the St. Seraphim references Alex, you saved me time. If we would just follow his maxim: "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved". Holy Father Seraphim, pray for us.

There seem to be a very narrow Latin western view of what examples of religious life is available to the church. Since Vatican II that was enlarged to take in older forms that had died out over time. The narrow view of nuns = enclosure did certainly come to define religious life in many eastern rite Catholic Churches. Hence the dying out of monastercism and the communities being reborn as orders of priests with lay brothers. Yes we know that there is in both east and west a long history of various forms of missionary work that came out of the monasteries. This is the challenge to the monasteries that Vatican II gave to the monastics. The challenge to th Eastern churches which came with apologies for the colonial oppression of their churches was to beleive in themselves. No point the popes for nearly a centry saying they value the eastern churches, if those in them did not value their own spirituality and heritage.

Well said, Pavel !

Now, how do we make that happen?

Restore Tradition within the Eastern Catholic Churches, yes. Encourage the sacramental life in Christ and theosis, yes.

But what about the monasteries? Could we encourage / ask for the founding of some missionary monasteries in the cities to serve the poorest of the poor? Or, in the alternative, could we establish some kind of lay association (perhaps with affiliation to a monastery) that could serve as missionaries to the poorest of the poor in our midst?

I emphasize that kind of service not out of some kind of feel-good Marxism but because those people truly need help, and because it is a good way / opportunity to get get ordinary people to live out their faith a little more fully, and because people will join the church that helps them and puts the Gospel into practice.

-- John

A lot of the religious congregations who specialised in teaching or nursing are in decline because the role can be done by people dont need to join up. There are so many expressions of consecrated life that have been brought forth from a laity who were remined at Vat II that all are called to holiness. Monasteries wont come to you. You have to join a monastic community. I heard a story of a woman who was complaining about the quality of priests these days. She went on and one and finally the very fed up bishop said to her that he was sorry she felt that way, however they only had the laity to recruit from. I am told she shut up and left him alone. It is true if you want monks then foster vocations in your homes. Monks will come out of your own ranks and not from somewhere else.