www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Why Byzantine Catholicism Will Not Succeed

Did I get your attention?

We cannot spread the Good News of Jesus Christ because we stare at our belly button too much.

More ink has been spilled (figuratively speaking) on these forums over the New Liturgy, the role of the Papacy, and if we are Eastern yet that one person seems to be missing in most threads:

Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior.


God bless,
Joe Thur

It seems to me, and I am sure you noticed this before I did, that our church has a particular gift for shooting itself in the foot. It has to be a gift, because we are excellent at it. I have been trying to identify the source of this problem for some time and can't point to a single factor. Maybe it's a combination of things ranging from timid leadership to rampant ethnicity in some of our parishes. Who knows? I do see some leaders trying to restore and revitalize our church and that's encouraging. We really need to figure out who we are, what we want to offer the world, and all get on the same page so we can do it. We have real problems with mission, organization and focus.

I think you guys are getting the picture in focus.

"Where there is no vision the people perish" is how the writer in the Bible put it.

Father Loya is offering us perhaps our last chance to receive the vision God is giving us. Through conversations with him I think what we'll need is short term (a few weeks?) patience and things will become quite clear.

Keep Saturday August 6 clear on your calendar. As so many righteous before us have said "The Just shall live by faith."

Don't get caught up with rearranging chairs as we approach the ice berg. Keep praying. Keep positive. Keep focused. It won't be long.

Dan L

JTHUR posted a thread entitled �Why Byzantine Catholicism won�t succeed.� Here is my response to that title.


I think the Eastern Catholic Churches will survive and thrive wherever there are living, viable communities of their native cultures. So, in other words, I think the Eastern Catholic Churches will survive in their native lands and in foreign lands where there are fresh communities of immigrants.

The serious problem I see is assimilation of Eastern Catholics in foreign lands. When Eastern Catholics immigrate to other countries, it takes a while for them to assimilate into the larger culture. Before they completely assimilate, they therefore keep their native religion alive. But when they do assimilate, they tend to abandon their religion as part of the assimilation process. In other words, Eastern Catholics (overall) tend to give up their religion as they give up the rest of their native culture while they assimilate into the new culture. At least, that has been my observation.

So, the solution would be to come up with new Eastern Catholic Churches for the new countries that Eastern Catholics immigrate to. For example, there is no reason why there should not be an American Eastern Catholic Church, instead of the numerous Eastern European Catholic Churches, for all the Eastern Catholics who immigrated to America and who have since assimilated into American culture.

However, there are no new Eastern Catholic Churches being created. Thus, in places like America, the Eastern Catholic population is tending to assimilate religiously --by giving up their Eastern Catholic religion-- as well as culturally. In other words, it seems that in America and places like it, the Eastern Catholic Churches are in real danger of dying out.

Hence, here is the question: Shall the Catholic Church be mostly Latin Rite and only tolerate Eastern Catholics where they already are?

If yes, the process of religious (as well as cultural) assimilation that I described above shall continue. And, those who want to remain Eastern in their Christianity will tend to join an Orthodox Church that is fully assimilated to the new culture (e.g. in America, the OCA and the Antiochian patriarchate and others.)

If no, there would be a revolution in Catholic thought and practice on the nature of the Church. It would require actually recognizing the value of diversity in theology and practice within the Church, and actively encouraging that diversity, while retaining unity / communion in essentials. Indeed, this would be the foundation for re-establishing communion with the other apostolic Churches.

Hence, I see the Catholic Church's treatment of its Eastern Catholic Churches as bellwether for Catholic theory and practice on ecumenism, economia, and communion -- or lack thereof.

--John

If I may be so bold to say so, and I am a Roman Catholic as you all know, so reprimand me and silence me if you feel to. I apologise in advance for speaking out of tone and speaking in ignorance moreover. However, if I were to make an observation from my short time here I'd say the same problem Roman Catholicism is having at the moment is also present in Byzantine Catholicism. Its manifestation is somewhat different but at the core its same difficulty. In the words of Fr John Corapi:

Again I apologise if my words seem insensitive or rude and ask forgiveness from all I might offend. Please understand that I am not trying to be offensive just trying to make a point. It strikes me when, for instance, the Byzantines call themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome and look for all these various terms by which to style themselves by. The Union of Brest was the decision of a metropolitan Synod of the united Kievan church. The Byzantine Catholics honoured it and honour it to this day and I dont think that is something to be ashamed of. Yet, an outsider may be forgiven for thinking that the Byzantines show a certain reticence (almost an apologetic attiutde) for their own existence.

The Byzantine Catholic Church is the Byzantine Catholic Church, nothing more nothing less. I love the Orthodox but they are not in full communion with Rome, unfortunately, painfully... As far as us Latins are concerned the Eastern lung of the Church is the Eastern Catholic Church. Its all we've got. The Byzantine Catholic Church has legitimate apostolicity from the Greek Patristic tradition and it has a responsibility to that. However, the Byzantine Catholic Church is not Orthodox either and whatever legitimate developments that have taken place in Byzantine Catholicism since the Byzantines established communion with Rome need not be deplored. Byzantine Catholicism has its own history its own genius' and they should be cherished and looked to as much as anyone else. Trust me being a Brit I think I can empathise.

For British Catholics, our history is basically Anglican history. The churches and cathedrals we built now belong to them, the shrines we built are in their hands. We share a history of 16th centuries and so we have little to call our own. We might outnumber them in terms of practicing Christians but they are the majority and we are a minority and they hold all the keys to all that we once were before Elizabeth I. Yet what I have, as a British Catholic, to call my own. I do not shirk from. Catholicism as unique in identity in Anglicanism began only 400 years ago, at the same time of Brest, but those of us who care to cherish what we have cling to it tooth and nail. We hold onto our matyrs, we hold onto Newman, we hold onto the Catholic literary revival spearheaded by Chesterton and Belloc and Knox. No they're not saints, but we honour them because they're what we have, what we are. We now enjoy cordial relations with the Protestants but we shall not turn our backs on our prized converts because of it.

Byzantine Catholicism has its own history, is its own animal. If I were an outsider I'd say it would do well to discover it again and develop it. Be yourselves, nothing more, nothing less and bring what is uniquely Byzantine to the world. Dont be afraid to be a little different from the Romans and the Orthodox because ontologically you are. Dont be afraid to develop your own theology in directions faithful to your own traditions within the boundaries of the magisterium. Ours is not the same even as the very high church Anglicans in this country, nor should it be. Ignoring the branch theory we practically believe 90% of what the descendants of the Puseyites do. But we're not the same. We're ourselves. Likewise the Byzantines are not Orthodox. They're themselves and they shouldnt fear that.

Be bold in your own identity, confident in what you are and then the gates open and the people will come flooding in. When they see the powerful witness of what is neither Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox but uniquely Eastern Catholic. They will come. They will come.

I wish Fr Loya the best of luck. May Sts Cyril and Methodius guide him and all of you in your steps.

John and Myles,

We have a mission which we are afraid to implement. What we've lacked is a vision to pursue it. God seems to be arranging for that now. How many will follow it?

Dan L

I agree, Dan and Myles. We do have an identity crisis. We are also too caught up in nonsense. You can see it on this forum at times. Some will post about what the Byzantines did to their ancestors - at least 500 years ago, I might add - or how east Carpathia was victimized by west, or by Russia. Folks, we live HERE. Let go of all that garbage. We are not Orthodox in communion with Rome, we are not Baroque East Carpathian Catholic Orthodox, or any other nonsensical title some may want to use. We are Byzantine Catholics in America! Get over it and get on with our mission - spreading Christ's message through Byzantine Catholicism. The popular culture is ready for what we have to offer. We just need to stop being so insular and self-obsessed and proclaim the good news of Christ as the antidote to popular culture.

Christ gave the Church a mission, if we ignore that mission we will perish. If embrace the mission then we will flourish.

The great commission was not given to only the apostles, it was given to all of us. And either we rise to it or wither.

1) The treasures of the rite need to be displayed. The more byzantine we become, the more we will grow.

2) Get out our ourselves and go to the world and offer what we have.

3) We are the Evangelical and the Charismatic Church, we need to act like it.

4) Don't be afraid to offend, offer them Christ, if they refuse, then brush off the sand and move on. More people will accept than will turn away.

5) Don't view change as evil. too many times we get caught up in the small issues.

6) Never think that we can't do this. With Christ's grace we can do ANYTHING.

More later.

John

Gordo has a great idea in his Jesus Prayer Starter Kit thread on this same forum. It is these practical applications of evangelism that can produce some good results for our Eastern Church. I am looking into this and would eventually like to do something similar in my area.

John,

Thank you for mentioning Christ, even though he does come fourth in your list. But good job anyway. There may be hope.

Joe

RELIGION IS THE SICKNESS OF FAITH

This thread seems like a needless waste of time, when there are so many pressing and more important issues, like liturgical minuteia and the length of beards. :p
-Daniel

Joe,

He is fourth because I am such a proud sinner. Perhaps if you pray for me, he will be first in my lists and in my life.

John

John,

Good answer. I'll pray that my life will be the same. I'll pray for you if you'll pray for me. Ok?

CDL

Dear John/Harmon,

I hate to keep bragging on my parish, but you need to come visit us. Your vision of the dwindling, assimilating Eastern churches is a limited vision. Come see us. We aren't dwindling.

Be faithful, and people will come. That's the answer. Faith is always the answer.

If you want proof, come visit.

I second Pseudo-Athanasius' invitation. Come on out and see us. See what the Lord is doing. There is much more to come and we wish you to be part of it.

Dan L