www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Who gets to be Patriarch?

I asked this on another thread.

What do you do with 2 Patriarchs of the same "Rite?" Say, that tomorrow the schism ended, who gets to be Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius IV or Gregory III? Who gets to be Patriarch of Kyiv, Lubomyr, Filaret, or Volodymyr? Even more strange is the prospect of one Patriarch from about 8 candidates.

http://www.geocities.com/rev_alexander2000/CUW1.html

I'm sorry to have caused another thread to close down.

That is a very interesting question. And I assume would not be addressed until the time comes because of personalities.
The most significant issue I think (and I could be wrong) is the different way hierarchs are elected.
In some Orthodox churches, the sobor, with participation of laity delegates and clergy elect the hierarch.
In other Orthodox jurisdictions, like the Constantinople, the Holy Synod elects the hierarch.

Myself I would prefer the election by the sobor of laity and clergy. It should not automatically be based on the hierarch of the church with the largest number of faithful automatically being sanctioned as the hierarch of the new united church or jurisdiction.

It is an interesting question.

Two things come to mind; although there was talk in John Paul II's pontificate of him resigning it (and I know POpes and Patriarchs are not analogous exactly), it occurs to me that sections of the laity might not cease to see an individual who set aside such an office as holding that office. If you get my drift..which might be more of a critical issue than the clerics.

My gut feeling in this hypothetical is that the cleric with the largest number of faithful would prevail, which in most cases would see the non-Catholic Patriarch get ahead; which might also ease the process of Union; at least on the Orhtodox side.

Having said that; controversial I know, but would any such union neccesarily have to replicate traditional or current patriarchal relationships? Stranger innovations have happened in the churches history. I haven't fully developed the idea, but a new organisation of jurisdictions might well result from a union which transformed the state of Christendom.

Perhaps given the dynamite nature of such a prospect I won't develop it...

Ned

As far as the Melkites are concerned, I'm told that all upon the end of the 1724 schism in the Antiochian Patriarchate (i.e. Catholic-Orthodox reunification) all the Catholic bishops will resign and the Orthodox will be bishops. But, that may only be a rumor.

I can imagine the Catholic Kyivan Patriarchate merging with the UOC-KP and/or UAOC. In fact, I do believe that's one of their stated goals (go to risu.org and look for some of Patriarch Lubomyr's interviews).

I have heard the same thing, at least as far as the Patriarch goes.


If reconciliation ever get really close, I could actually see it coming undone over the situation in Ukraine.

As an Orthodox Christian, and also a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canadaa I can not see that beening accepted by the Orthodox world. There is a joint Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox commission that meets to discuss unity between the two churches. Individual jurisdictions such as the Serbian Orthodox Church or the Bulgarian Orthodox Church for example would not unite with the Catholic Church in Serbia or the Bulgarian Orthodox Church with the Catholic Church in Bulgaria.
What unites all of us Orthodox is our unity of faith and communion. That is the reason for the joint Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox commission and their dialogue in the hopes of unity.

To give another example, althoug maybe not a good one, would the Ukrainian Catholic Church by itself unite with the Lefebvrites?

See a recent article from RISU about FR. Vasyl Kovpak:
http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;13019/

I don't see why the UGCC would have any issue uniting with the Lefebvrites if they came out of their schism and stopped causing trouble.

As for the Patriarchates of Antioch and Alexandria, we all know the rightful heirs are HH Patriarch Ignathios (Syriac Orthodox) and HH Pope Shenouda (Copt) respectively, not either of the Byzantines

Illian/Miller-

I agree 100%. Note that "Catholic Kyivan Patriarchate merging with the UOC-KP and/or UAOC", in the sense that the UGCC would probably be willing to do that and from what I read the KP and UAOC might in time be willing (obviously Miller disagrees - Miller, do you see the continuation of these parallel Ukranian Churches who are in communion with eachn other?).

I can also see Moscow's reaction to this as a big potential problem.

Dear People of God:
Let's NOT jump to too far ahead on this question on who will be patriarch. Theory and conjecture may be fun at times, but these imaginative notions are only in our minds and actually may lead us away from Christ's desire that "all be as one" (John 17:21-22). Let us entrust this process of re-unification to the Holy Spirit and let Him lead! Amen?

Christ reminds us, "If any one would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all" (Mark 9:35). So to be "among the first", one must serve the people of God and not be worried who will be first.

Jesus gave us another Scripture to ponder on the question of prominence: "The mother of the sons of Zeb'edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something. And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able." He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers. But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:20-28).

Jesus did not leave us instructions on how to elect a patriarch. As you can see, He gives us life-giving words on the qualifications of a true servant.

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

Ray,

The point of this thread was that it was a "spinoff" from a thread that was closed because I had entered a tangent from a tangent in which it was discussed that the ECs will enter the EO Churches during the reunification (may God grant it soon!) I suggested that what if the EOs entered the ECs instead. (Just asking.) Then I asked who got to be Patriarch if there are already 2 Patriarchs, that's when the thread closed down.

I was just looking for the logisticals on this, I'm not looking for speculation like when the Papal Conclave met. I believe this happened in the past when certain Churches entered communion with Rome.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

Dr Eric,

The thing is, no matter what can be said here in this thread, it is just that, pure speculation and nothing more. What Ray actually answered is just as valid as any other point made so far. What the premise of this thread is doing is projecting the way before anything concrete is being discussed. This will all have to be worked out in time, and until then anything else is purely speculative.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

OK, I accept that.

Maybe,since my wife reposed earlier this year,I should throw my hat into the ring.Just kidding,just kidding!

"Ton Despotin ke arhierea imon! Kyrie filate! Eis pola eti Despota!"



Alexandr

I'll be a bit catty. The Ecumenical Patriarch is just a stand in for the Pope of Rome. He is keeping the Pope's seat warm until he decides to rejoin the Holy Orthodox Church. Of course, its been a while since any Latin Pope has been a member of the Orthodox Church!