www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News MP: UGCC still proselytizing; affects ecum talks

Proselytism is about conversion. It's an organized, sustained, explicit effort to gain converts. That's what these people are doing. Miles Jesu is not there to build ecumenical bridges.

It's proselytism, whether one chooses to view it that way or not, and it is very much unlike having some individuals just decide to switch sides.

Pane Orest,

If what I wrote is so wrong, then why is Alexandr applauded for writing the same thing? Could it have anything to do with which side we each support? I pray that I am wrong - I wouldn't want to think that there were double standards.

Між іншим, я ніякий �пан�.

Sorry Illian, but I don't see anything in the paragraphs you quote that indicate proselytism. That is NOT to say, however, that Miles Jesu does not engage in prosyletism. Quite frankly, I have no idea! But nothing you wrote indicates any systematic effort on the part of this community to "convert" others to Catholicism.

Gordo

They're there in an organized effort to bring about unity through conversion (and the cite numbers of those converted or in the pipeline). Call it whatever you want. It's proselytism.

Dear Kobzar,

Please don't take my prior response personally. It was not intended as a slap to the UGCC. Historical tit for tat will get us nowhere. Both sides have inflicted grevious injury on the other. I forget the Union of Brest until someone mentions the Soviet reparations. Does anyone believe that the soviets treated the Orthodox any better? I have 40+ million New Martyrs who might take exception to that. The problem boils down to one of perception. In the eyes of the Orthodox Church, when someone joins the UGCC, because the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are still seperated, he is still outside of the Church, no different than if he had become a Baptist or JW. Catholicism is viewed with mistrust and apprehension by the East, and I may add, not without historical justification. So when the UGCC opens a Church, or baptizes someone into the faith, they are being deprived of Orthodoxy. Whether one agrees or disagrees with this, it is pretty much how it is viewed by the episcopate. Now I personally much prefer someone to become Greek Catholic as opposed to a potestant or sectarian, because it is so much closer to the Truth. But as they say, close only counts in horseshoes.

Alexandr

Umm...no, you are still making a logical leap, Illian. Here is the quote from the article:



There is the possibility that he is referring to the momentum towards unity that then Pope John Paul II "cried" and "prayed" for. He quotes a Catholic bishop who indicates the number of applications he has received to enter communion, as well as the numbers that have already entered. There is nothing here in his words (whatever you may infer) to indicate that either he (the author or the bishop) or Miles Jesu had anything formally to do with these men and there reception or application.

So...again we come to the question: what is the proselytism to which the Patriarch refers?

Gordo

Sorry, Kobzar, I was trying to be sarcastic. But I guess that did not come across. I was trying to say as you did in the last post that both sides of the ideological extreme are wrong.

I have my own axe to grind with INTERFAX, which is off topic and also with Ukrainian Catholic sites that repeat the same old story of property rights. History is blurred and I think there is no point in fighting old battles. No one wins.

I am very pleased with this forum and the way we all try to keep a civil pen (computer keyboard?). This fills me with much hope for the future.

Z Bohom, vash brat.

Dear Alexandr,

Blagoslovenie Gospodnie!

The comparison between the Union of Brest and the events of 1945/46 is often suggested but seldom actually made. Consider:

The Union of Brest was done by an actual Synod of the Kiev Metropolia, with the Metropolitan and a majority of the Hierarchs in favor. The bishops who were opposed remained in possession of their dioceses. The 1946 atrocity was not supported by any Greek-Catholic bishop at the time (or since); they were all in prison.

The Polish government, contrary to popular mythology, was not overly enthused for the Union of Brest. One should note that for just over a century the L'viv diocese remained Eastern Orthodox. No Greek-Catholic diocese was able to exist above ground in the USSR between 1946 and 1990.

For the entire period, an Orthodox parish continued to function in L'viv - the parish which is now located in "Little Saint George" on Korolenko Street, and is regarded by Moscow and those who are like-minded as the only canonical parish in the city. No Greek-Catholic parish was allowed to function above ground in the USSR between 1946 and 1990.

I trust you take my point.

with every blessing, fraternally in Christ,

Fr. Serge

What's seems logical to me is to assume a group like this (given their status) would not be overt about their intentions and activities as somebody like the Transalpine Redemptorists. It also seems logical to me to believe, based on this and some things I've heard before, that this group is in Western Ukraine because they view it as a mission and field with Orthodox Christians as potential converts.

They are not waiting around for people to show up, they are going after them. You are free to believe otherwise, but I can pretty much tell you that any Orthodox Christian who read ths mission statement of this group would understand what their intentions are.

Illian,

You may in fact be correct that Miles Jesu sees as part of its mission of fostering Christian unity the "conversion" of Orthodox Christians to Catholicism. If it is in fact a part of their missionary efforts, I would agree with you (as would Rome) that it is not a legitimate dimension of their aposolate. To my mind, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are part of the same ecclesial reality and so any effort to steal sheep is a wasted effort that should have been expended on the lost souls of atheists, agnostics, secularists and our Protestant brothers and sisters. SURELY there are enough of those to go around!

I just do not see any evidence of it in the quotation you cite, nor has anyone yet indicated what prosyletism the Patriarch is referring to.

God bless,

Gordo

I looked around on the Miles Jesu website, and they look extremely Latin to me. What -- besides being "bi-ritual" -- is Byzantine about them?