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Apparently somethings don't change regarding hiding the truth about genocide. Apparently it is still a crime to reveal the genocide against the Armenians and other Christians in Turkey. Here is the BBC link:
Genocide writer might get jail [news.bbc.co.uk]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Father Anthony,
It would be useful and timely for someone to write and publish an account of what became of the Greeks in Turkey during the twentieth century - starting with the catastrophe of Smyrna.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus, Christ is born!

There are some excellent books that have been written. Unfortunately I have loaned both out so I only have the titles in my head, one is "Syrmna", which was written by an Armernian, based on documents from the various archives of the various combatants' diplomatic services of WWI. The other is a relatively recent account written by a Greek who lived through some of the tragedies of the 50s & 60s, it is titled "The Miracle". If you can obtain them by googling for them, I highly recommend them.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

And, while they're at it, maybe the Greeks can explain what they did in Thessaloniki to the Muslims or what happened to the Jews there. The Armenians used to blame Turks and Kurds equally; the Kurds apologized and now the Kurds are listed as victims also. Israel, which knows something about genocide, objects when "Genocide" is used in reference to Armenians. And the Serbs can tell us what they did to the Muslims or the Croats can explain what they did to Muslims, Serbs, Jews and Roma. And what about the hidden synagougue found recently in Portugal that belonged to Jews first expelled from Spain and then suppressed in Portugal? The list goes on and no one--nobody--has clean hands.

bob r.

Bob,

I caught the general gist of your post but your point about the Armenians I missed. Being I am Armenian I can tell you one difference in all of this is that the Germans apologized to the Jews for their crimes against them and even paid restitution. The Turkish government continues to deny to this day that any Genocide ever took place, despite overwhelming evidence. This is why it is noteworthy that someone is being arrested for reporting on the Genocide. It is evidence of a continuation of a systematic denial of the truth. Most Christians would find such a thing noteworth. I commend and thank Father Anthony for bringing this to our attention.

if interested here is my page on the Genocide:
http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/genocide.html

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar Der-Ghazarian

Orthodox Evangelization Mission
www.geocities.com/derghazar/OEM [geocities.com]

Dear Ghazar,

Thank you for the link to your site about the genocide. It helps give all a better idea about this atrocity, and the shameful cover-up that is still perpetrated.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Bob you said:

"And, while they're at it, maybe the Greeks can explain what they did in Thessaloniki to the Muslims or what happened to the Jews there. The Armenians used to blame Turks and Kurds equally; the Kurds apologized and now the Kurds are listed as victims also."

I say:

I think you have your history all wrong. First of all the Jews in Thessaloniki were taken by the Nazi's. They were all exterminated in the death camps of Eastern Europe.

Now I don't think that should have happened, and frankly I don't know why it happened considering that Greece is a very mountainous country. All one needs to do is run for the hills and join the Greek underground.

In Athens, the head Rabbi left the city, and that was a call for all the Jews to leave. They did survive. Also the identity cards stating one's religion was instituted at this time, in order to give the Jews an Orthodox identity.

Also the Jews on the Greek islands under Italy were fine. The problem arose when Italy surrendered and Germany took over. What I can't understand is when I was on the island of Rhodes, a Jewish woman from N.Y. approached me and kept talking about the money buried on the island. She said the Jews were exceptionally wealthy, and obviously they must have been taken by the Nazi's.

Now what puzzles me is that Rhodes is about five to ten miles off the Turkish coast. Turkey was neutral in the war...so why weren't they able to go there. I know Greeks that were able to leave the islands near Turkey to join the English forces. Now if they could sail across at night, why didn't the Jews?

As for the Muslims in Thessaloniki, I have no idea about that. What I do know is that the majority of the population in Western Asia Minor were Greeks. Smyrna was a Greek city as was Constantinople.

Now in 1922 the Greeks took over Smyrna and the east coast of Turkey, but being 'stupid', (my word, not Hemingways who just happened to be there as a Canadian reporter), they did not consolodate their position but instead kept marching inland to go to Constantinople and Ankara...and that was a no-no!

Well outside of Constantinople they met with opposing Italian, English and French troops and couldn't proceed. See, if Greece or Russia were to take Constantinople, which by the way was predominantly Christian, it might have destroyed the balance of power in Europe.

Now when Ataturk managed to resurrect the Turks, and they marched towards Smyrna in order to reoccupy the city, they proceeded to massacre the Christians, and then set fire to Smyrna. The people ran to the harbor in order to save themselves from the fire and then some tried to save themselves by swimming towards the British, French and Italian ships. Well, guess what? They pushed them back into the sea.


Now all this is recorded by Americans that were living there at the time. Now there was one American that just happened to realize the situation and realized that the Greeks had some ships but were afraid that if they went to save the people, the ships would be confiscated. I believe that they made him an Admiral, and placed the ships under an American flag...or so I think!

Well, many people did survive...actually about two-million, and they fled into the poor nation of Greece with a population of about three-million.

Now to get into this 'exchange of populations' (as Turkey wants it called). The Treaty of Lausanne was signed stating that two-million Greeks were to leave Turkey and about Two-hundred-fifty Turks were to leave Greece and go to Turkey. The treaty also stated that the Patriarch was to remain in Istanbul and in exchange twenty-five thousand Turks were to remain in Thrace.

Today there are about 150,000 Turks in Greek Thrace, yet all the Greeks, (or Romans as they called themselves), were forced to leave Istanbul (Constantinople), during the pogroms of the 1950's or 1960's. Turkey later on proceeded to take Northern Cyprus with Henry Kissinger's blessing. She has yet to leave and has repopulated it with Turks from the mainland. She also refuses to pay reparations.

Turkey wants to join the E.U. yet does not recognize the state of Cyprus. Curious isn't it?
But then again, it shouldn't be. Turkey always sets the rules and manages to get what she wants.

Now I know the Greeks are not angels, nor are the Armenians, nor are the Jews...but the difference is that whatever they do, is done by individuals, not as government policies. Whatever Turkey does on the other hand, is a government policy. That is a big difference.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

BRAVO!!!

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Bob,
The undisputable statement that no one has absolutely clean hands does not excuse any particular atrocity - if the Nazis try that line there are rightly vociferous protests.

Dear Zenovia,
The Greeks aren't angels? Whaddya mean? Do you not know that the Gospel proves that Christ really came to the Greeks? When the Apostles told Him that there were some Greeks waiting to speak with Him, Our Lord said "Now is the Son of Man glorified!"

Incognitus

I don't think that I have history all wrong. When we read history we read it with particular biases. That's okay, but everyone needs to be aware of their biases and I, hope, not use religion or other people to carry forward their biases and a political agenda.

Thessalonki's Jews and Muslims were given to the Nazis by a more-or-less compliant political structure backed by the Orthodox Church there. And these were not elected officials, but authoritarian thugs supported by clerical fascists. Granted that there were notable exceptions in Thessaloniki, but not enough. And this happened after centuries of people getting along relatively well on the ground.

I didn't say anything about Athens or Rhodes.

Turkish authorities behaved terribly to the Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds and others. No doubt about it. But from a Turkish point of view, they were defending a empire and paying back what they got from Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and others earlier. The controversy over Cyrus and Halki echo that complicated past.

Aleksa Santic's great poem to departing Turks asking them not to leave Serbia needs to be heard and applied everywhere. But nationalism does not hear that beautiful voice.

Instead, Serbs do to others what was done to them. Armenians seize NGK and remind the Georgians and Azeris that they can invade their countries any time by using the highways paid for by the Armenian diaspora. The Greek Church supports the parastate and dictatorship and still insists on identity cards. And when questioned about this, the inevitable response in Orthodsox quarters is always that this is done by individuals or that Greater Greece/Russia/Serbia/Armenia has some historic justification or that modern-day atrocities are indeed or somehow understandable because there were other atrocities, generations ago, which need to be recognized and perhaps even made up for. Besides being intellectually dishonest, its dangerous myth-making.

Anyone who says, "The undisputable statement that no one has absolutely clean hands does not excuse any particular atrocity..." needs to begin in their own backyard. I've heard Serbs, Croats, Greeks, Russians, Poles, Jews and Armenians say this for the better part of 50 years and usually just before committing atrocities.

Every one of them had a valid claim to life, land, people and freedom. None of them stopped there.

"Look out," my father used to say. "The politicians are talking about making peace. A war must be coming."

The best film on this from a "sort-of" Orthodox perspective is "Before The Rain." You can get it at most local video stores.

bob r.

Dear Bob you said:

"Thessalonki's Jews and Muslims were given to the Nazis by a more-or-less compliant political structure backed by the Orthodox Church there. And these were not elected officials, but authoritarian thugs supported by clerical fascists. Granted that there were notable exceptions in Thessaloniki, but not enough. And this happened after centuries of people getting along relatively well on the ground."

I say:

I don't know where your information is coming from. The Muslims in that part of the world, always considered themselves Turks, and the Turks always tended towards the Germans. Both Marshall people you know!

Now the only Turks left in Greece after the population exchange of 1923 would have been in Thrace... and their population has increased from 25,000 to 150,000, while all the Greeks in Istanbul fled for their lives during the pogroms of the 1950's and 1960's.

A hundred years ago, the majority of people in Istanbul were Greeks, or as they call themselves, 'Romans'. I think someone might be feeding you propaganda.

As for the identity cards, they were purposefully made by the Greek government during the German occupation so that the Jews could be written up as Orthodox Christians.

Zenovia

The Muslims were not the victims of German oppression in WW II, neither in the Balkans nor in the Caucasus where Muslims in general fought in SS divisions. Read this from a military history website on the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division: The reasons for the recruitment in particular of Croatian Muslims by the SS were many-fold. For one, Himmler was fascinated by the Islamic faith, and thought Muslims to be fearless soldiers. Himmler also subscribed to the propaganda theory that Croatians (and therefore the Croatian Muslims) were not, in fact, Slavic people, but actually of Aryan (Gothic) descent, and thereby acceptable to the racially "pure" SS. The fact that this ludicrous theory would not hold up to any kind of serious scrutiny was conveniently ignored. Finally, the Germans were hoping to rally the World's 350 million Muslims to their side, in a struggle against the British Empire. The creation of a Muslim, albeit European Muslim Division, was considered a stepping stone to this greater end. This is military history!

Dear bergschlawiner,

The truth is that when ever there was an uprising of some sort, the Greeks or what not would commit 'some' attrocities, but the rataliation by the Turks was not in tune to what any civilized nation, would have done. And that includes the Arabs and Egyptians, because they too suffered dearly.

Now when Turkish troops occupied Northern Cyprus and the population ran for their lives, Turks from the mainland were sent to repopulate the area.

When Pres. Ford mentioned in his speech that Turkey was a long time ally of the Americans, (which they were not); actually they fought against us in WW I and were neutral in WW II, the camera turned towards a smiling Kissinger. He has never held a government position since then. The Republicans lost the election, and Carter ended up winning an election by default. It turned out that the shortage in funds of the Republican party, was the exact amount that the Greeks and Greek Americans witheld.

The Greek lobby managed to stop all aid to Turkey, yet the American government provided it through Germany. The amount provided was the exact amount that it cost Turkey to retain it's troops in Cyprus. As yet, they have not left.

One of the reasons Greece wants Turkey in the EU is because she's been threatened for the past 15 plus years. The Turkish military jets have been flying over Greek air space in the Aegean continuously until forced to leave by the Greek one's.

I can't help but feel that Turkey's agenda is to revive the Ottoman Empire, in the same way that the Arabs want to restore the Caliphate. Albania is predominantly Muslum Turks, and it was the Albanian terrorists that were committing attrocities on the Serbs living in Kosovo.

When the Serbs tried to retaliate, the Turkish propoganda machine started. Today, the U.N. is not able to stop the terrorists from committing attrocities against the few Serbs still living there, so they are being forced to leave. The ancient Churches and Monasteries have all been destroyed.

Again all this is thanks to us. That war was Clinton and Albright's war. A complete failure, because he promised that Kosovo will always be part of Serbia. Well today the problem is so severe, that it is being brought up at the UN. No doubt, the outcome will be what the terrorists always wanted. An independant Kosovo, that will eventually join up with Albania.

Now next to Kosovo we have 'Macedonia'. Now Macedonia is not really 'Macedonia'. It is a false name that was given to it by Tito...no doubt for expansionist reasons with the intent to eventually retake Thessaloniki, the seaport on the Mediterrean.

In it's advertising, 'Macedonia' shows the city of Thessaloniki and the symbol of Alexander the Great. Yet the Macedonian's are Slavs, they are not Greek, and the Slavs did not enter the area until 500 AD or afterwards...nor was that area 'ever' part of historical Macedonia. So what goes?

Well, the Muslims in this so called country of Macedonia are ready for a civil war. No doubt to unite with a future Albanian Kosovo. In order to pacify them, and give the nation an identity we decided to accept the name Macedonia. Now this is basically the same as someone naming the northern part of Mexico 'Texas' and showing pictures of Dallas and the Alamo. Considering the 'Ottoman' mentality, and the Balkan wars that were fought over that seaport, one can only wonder what the future holds.

So in order to keep this false nation of Macedonia from having a civil war, the process is starting of this 'Macedonia' entering the EU. Yet I can't help but feel, that should they enter the EU, the problems will not be solved and that it will eventually become Muslim. Not through war, but through population growth.

Then we have Thrace, the part of Greece that now has a Muslim population of 125,000 to 150,000. Eventually they will try to prove that they are being mistreated. That is if Turkey does not join the EU.

Well I could go on and on, but the point is that all these places; Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Thrace and Turkey itself, will form a circle around Greece. So what do we have? The growth of the second Ottoman Empire.

Zenovia

If the turks have any ideas of an "empire" perhaps they should eye Iraq which was before the British mandate three provinces of the Turkish sultanate. They might do better than the West is doing right now!

Dear Zenovia,

As much as I have been enjoying your posts in this matter, I have to as one that has taught history point out one correction to your statement above. Even though the Ottoman Empire was allied with Germany and Austria-Hungary in WWI, they never declared war against the United States or we to the Ottoman Empire. We maintained full diplomatic relations with the Sublime Porte right to the end, with Ambassador Henry Morgenthau reporting to Washington (this is documented in the State Dept. archives) most of the atrocities as they were happening.

I just wanted to clarify this so that the rest which is well done does not get dragged down by it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+