www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The New Liturgy's Effect on Spiritual Life

The Following is borrowed from Slavipodvizhnik's thread "Words from Optina"

"As long as we are in this world, let us repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, so that we may be saved by the Lord while we still have time for repentance. For after we have departed from the world, we are no longer able there either to confess or to repent anymore.

Second Clement, c. A.D. 100."

Lets hold on a minute here Steve. Nowhere does InCogNeat3 imply that the priest at St Cyril's holds the view in the pamphlet mentioned. It just furthered his explanation of Protestant proseletyzing in the area. And I really must object to your implying Orthodox proseletyzing here. I have seen no, nada, zippo proseletyzing here by any Orthodox. On the contrary, to a post, we are encouraging you to stand up and save your church from those who would destroy it. I have already stated that I am actively opposed to anyone converting to Orthodoxy because they are mad at their bishops. This kind of conversion bears poor spiritual fruit, with problems down the road. One converts to the True Faith because one comes to the realization that it is the True Faith, not because they feel that the Catholic Church is wrong, and Orthodoxy is "the next best thing".

Really now, you have to stop seeing a Skhimnik in every woodpile and a Starets in every bush. Paranoia is a most unbecoming trait!

Alexandr

I don't understand this statement, as the people who formed the ACROD were in no way forsaking their heritage but seeking to preserve it at the time that they saw it in grave danger. One could say they were either right or wrong for doing so, but I don't think you could arrive at any other conclusion.

Look what Carpatho-Rusyns endured! This is from the OCA.ORG website for Ss. Peter and Paul Church in Vintondale, PA. A similar situation occured in my parish in a rivalry between a Galician cantor and a Rusyn cantor, resulting in violence and the priest and fellow Galicians leaving a forming a Ukrainian Catholic (now Orthodox) parish down the road. I guess what I'm trying to say is, letting emotions get in the way of the (hopefully) good of the Church can result in loss, hard feelings, loss of faith, and even schism. Read on and think!

"Parish Background

Ss Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of Vintondale was first organized in Wehrum, a mining community some three miles away from present-day Vintondale, sometime between 1902 and 1904. The charter name given to the Wehrum Community was Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church. The only existing records of the Wehrum community is the October 1906 purchase, through Archbishop Tikhon, of a .45 acre tract for use as a cemetary in Buffington Township from RW and Eliza Mack. The cemetary and dedication monument dated October 6, 1906, still exist. Unfortunately, the town of Wehrum was shut down inefinitely in 1904 by the Collier Co and all miners were told to vacate the town. Most moved to Vintondale.

Through the efforts of the Rev Fr Alexis Mitropolsky of St John the Baptist Orthodox Church, Conemaugh, the Church Committee purchased Lot 11 Block J in 1907 for $1.00 from the Vintondale Colliery Company. The location of the new Church was to be on the corner of Third and Lovell Sts. The company deeded the lot to Archbishop Platon and the cornerstone was laid on November 28, 1907. The Church was completed shortly thereafter.

From the Carpathian region of the Austro-Hungarian empire, three groups of people settled to make up the Russian Orthodox Church: the group from northern Zemplin County, present day Slovakia, from the towns between Parizohuvce and Velike Poljane; the group from Mukachevo, present day western Ukraine, from the village od Velikj Luchkj; and the group from Marmarosh County, present day south-east Slovakia.

Only local oral history retains the memory of Ss Peter and Paul in the early years. But in April 1921, with the assignment of Rev Fr Dzwonchick, a rivalry between the two cantors: Charlie Tegza from Marmorosh County and Charlie Kovach from the Mukacheve region ensued. Each side hired a lawyers to represent them in court.

According to a document from the Cambria County Equity Docket, the church officers filed for an injunction against Charles Haratsy, George Babich, and Charles Riskom supporters of Charlie Tegza from Marmarosh County. These three men, along with their families staged a sit-down strike in the church, claiming they did not like the new priest.

As Church funds were depleted and the rivalry heated, the judge ruled that all church offices held by law mwmbers were declared vacant, All church records, money, papers and property were turned over to court-appointed officers. The new officers met with the approval of Archbishop Tikhon. The make-up of the new court appointed board was a mixture of plaintiffs and defendants. But the ordeal was not over.

In the meantime, Slavic speaking evangelists from Brownsville came to Vintondale and began to conduct Bible studies. About 12 families left the Church led by Charlie Tegza, former cantor and local butcher and became known as the Russellites. In 1923 this group purchased property a few lots down from Ss Peter and Paul and began their own Religious Services. This group, mostly made up of people from Marmorosh County, was later to become the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah Witness located in present day Mundy's Corner, PA. The schism at Ss Peter and Paul's was great. However, it was only not until 1930 that the Orthodox Community in Vintondale was able to pass the crisis and begin functioning with a normal church life. To this day the Jehovah's Witnesses frequently canvass Vintondale.

Nine priests have served the Vintondale Orthodox Community through the 80 years of her existence.

Owing to its small size, the parish has existed as a Mission for the past 30 years, sharing her priest with Colver and now in these ten last years, in Portage. As an aging community, the twenty-one adults which support the church must be lauded. In the past ten years extensive renovation and updating has taken place to improve the Church and her facilities. Currently a building project is taking place to better utilize basement storage space.

As a Mission Parish, Ss Peter and Paul is served each week with the Sunday Typica and Wednesday morning Divine Liturgy and Bible Study. It has been the Bible Study that has increased the will of the faithful to survive and prosper. Because the congregation is so small, when the faithful gather, we do so as a family or as a one room school house. Life in rural Pennsylvania does have some charm.

Services are conducted in both English and Church-Slavonic languages, and use the medium of Carpatho-Russian Congregational Chant.

As the knowledge of Scripture and the person of Jesus increases along with the rational explanations of our Holy Tradition and Orthodox way of life, Vintondale will continue to survive. and if some industruy will return to the area and bring secure jobs, the hope for the future in this little dale will make the 21st century."

In Steve's defense, the following two statements could certainly pass for proseletyzing:

"Right idea, wrong direction. You don't need to go west. You need to go further EAST. Orthodoxy is available, and the liturgy hasn't changed . . . "

and

"I don't think you need to continue this exercise of comparing styles of liturgy, Roman Catholic and Orthodox. I think you know how bad the Novus Ordo liturgy can be. I think you also know the basic differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I think you know what you need to do."

That said, this forum far exceeds any other I've ever frequented in both charity and erudition. Though I don't post often, I log in daily, and I admire all those who regularly post here (including those quoted above). Though I find Steve's accusation of proselytism defensible, I certainly don't mean to draw unnecessary negative attention to anyone.

God bless,

Chris

With all due respect Chris, I would hardly estimate those comments, made in their respective contexts, to rise to the position of proseltyzation. Trust me, if I wanted to proseletyze, the revisionists have basically done my work for me. Yet, despite such "easy pickings" the thrust of the Orthodox has been for the Byzantine Catholics to save their own Church. Otherwise, we Orthodox would have openly supported the revisionists and the destruction of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Alexandr

Alexandr,

Though I stand by my position, I wholeheartedly agree that the general tone of this thread has been one of support, encouragement, and compassionate advice from Orthodox Christians for those who are anxious about the revisions. As a Ruthenian Catholic, I share this anxiety. Considering that the revised liturgy, at least as far as I can tell, has been the work of a few individuals without much input from either clergy or laity, one of my primary questions is: how will the new liturgy be recieved by clergy who had no part in its construction? One priest has already told me that he will refuse to implement the changes. A numerically declining Church that has been rent by divisions in the past has no need for a "modernized" liturgy that may prove to be more divisive than anything else.

God bless,

Chris

Didn't Archbishop Ireland in the 1890's, and Cum Data Fuerit in 1929 teach these modern bishops anything? Do they not know the history of the Greek Catholic church in the U.S.? I have a few books I can lend them if they don't. The church is nowhere near the size it was 75 years ago. Don't they realize why there is such a sizable slavic Orthodox church in the USA?

I'm convinced that they are too afraid to be Eastern. They must be Catholic first, and Eastern second. Let's see how big the exodus will be.

The novus ordo liturgy of the Ruthenian Church will have no effect upon my spiritual life, because I have no intention of attending services in a parish that uses it.

God bless,
Todd

InCogNeat3's,

Your posts recounting your experiences at Latin Rite parishes mirrors my own experience over the years, but it is possible -- if you look long enough -- to find a Latin parish that is liturgically inoffensive.

God bless,
Todd

Etnick:
When you say, "I'm convinced that they are too afraid to be Eastern. They must be Catholic first, and Eastern second," is that really what you mean? I would think that all of us who are Catholic should identify ourselves as Catholic (which is to say Christian), should identify ourselves primarily as Catholic (Christian), and secondarily as Eastern, Roman, or whatever, just as those who are canonically Orthodox (which is to say Christian just as Catholic does), should also identify themselves primarily as Orthodox (Christian), and secondarily as Greek, Russian, etc. I'm certainly not suggesting that Eastern Catholics retreat from their Eastern identity in the least, but I'm troubled by any suggestion that we should be Eastern first, then Catholic.
Ryan

This thread is way off topic. I am going to close it. Posters are welcome to start a new topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator