www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Random thoughts on the sad state of affairs

The revisionists will never understand that many of those who will leave because of the new liturgy and its translations are not really leaving but rather see their church leaving them. If the revisionists could ever understand this they would be on their way to seeing why they are wrong.
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The eyebrow raising comment of 2006 had to be in an article quoting Archbishop Basil:
"At the same time, he stressed that the church should be an 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church."
And yet Parma, where he was Bishop, and Pittsburgh where he is Bishop, 90%+ of our parishes have no Vespers.
90%+ have no Matins.
Some churches are using pre-cut particles and completely skipping Proskomedia.
If there's one person on the planet who could lead us to restoration and 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church' it is him.
The Archbishop had such direct language as to the fact that the new liturgy is the only liturgy that is to be followed.
Where in the world is that direct language regarding Vespers?
Where in the world is that direct language regarding Matins?

"Authentic place of worship' oh, that's funny.
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And let me get this straight, the full liturgy approved by Rome was ignored by our hieracrchs for decades and now all of sudden obedience is supposed to start?
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Why is it that some laity are more privy to details of the new liturgy than our clergy?
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Does the Our Father continue to have archaic English in it? If yes, I thought the committee was making the language more relevant to the people of today?
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Why are the revisionist so scared of three verse antiphons? It only takes an extra 2 minutes at the most. What's the big deal? Theophany is a great example of where having more than one verse (dare I say) would educate people about the feast day being commemorated. Furthermore, if we really wanted to inform the laity of the feast, we would celebrate Vespers (where the real meat and potatoes of what's going on is) in at least the majority of our parishes.

"Authentic place of worship' oh, that's funny.
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As the Great Fast starts in a couple of weeks, I can't help but ask, Canon of St. Andrew, anybody, anybody celebrating this? It will be a shock if more than 10% of our parishes are.

"Authentic place of worship' oh, that's funny.
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Once the Great Fast starts, I still to this day defy someone to do a proper prostration in a pew. What's that you say, what's a prostration and what do I have against pews?

"Authentic place of worship' oh, that's funny.

I will be attending the Great Canon of St. Andrew at an OCA parish staffed by an ex-Greek Catholic, now OCA Priest.

I will also be attending the Akathist the first five Fridays of the Great Fast at my usual Vespers parish, which is a parish of the Greek Orthodox ArchDiocese of America.

I highly recommend that everyone do the same. I absolutely LOVE the Akathist! I have never attended the Great Canon of St. Andrew. I have heard that it is wonderful.

I talked to a Sts. Cyril and Methodius Priesthood candidate student about the Great Canon of St. Andrew. He said that he didn't think that they did the whole Canon last year.

Again please attend the Akathist the First Five Fridays of the Fast and also try to attend the Great Canon of St. Andrew. We really don't know what we have been missing.

A betrayal of sorts.

'I talked to a Sts. Cyril and Methodius Priesthood candidate student about the Great Canon of St. Andrew. He said that he didn't think that they did the whole Canon last year.'

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Out of all our seminarians, I cannot think of one who would answer this question in this fasion. We sing the Great Canon, all nine odes of it, in the context of the Matins of the Thursday of the Fifth Week in the Great Fast...and we do so every year.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

I find it very hard to understand their motivations. But, they don't seem to care about how much pain is caused by what they have done.

I think the priests in that seminary have been out of parishes, and away from the people, too long. They've lost touch with reality, lost in their books and renovationistic theories.

I don't know exactly where they want the Byzantine Church to go, but they don't seem to care if they leave most of the people behind.

As long as we continue to use our envelopes and bankroll this nonsense, they will be happy.

By the way, I have stopped paying my tithe to the Church, I am giving it to another charity.

Nick

Prof. Thompson,

In their newer books the Basilians also give all nine odes of the Great Canon at Matins of Thrusday of the Fifth Week, but with only a fraction of the troparia - roughly the same number as one would take for one evening when breaking up the Great Canon for Great Compline during the First Week of the Fast.

Does the seminary follow the Basilian (I assume it was their idea) abbreviation or is the complete Canon sung?

Also, is the Canon sung at the seminary during the First Week as well?

Nicholas let's face it - the RC Church did this in the 70s - Priests began doing their own thing and saying I know better what my people want [ note NOT need] and it's taken till now for the pendulum to start swinging back.

I have seen RC Priests - one was an ex Rector of a Seminary, who changed the words of the Consecration !! And they thought this was perfectly OK

Rubrics are for breaking ,if we can make things simple for the people to understand - or at least that's the impression that we were given. Let's make things easy for those who say they are Catholic and come twice a year .

We were told [ remember I was RC at this time] that these changes would make it more relevant to the person in the pew.

But it hasn't - they have been leaving in droves , Priests no longer visit .

Thankfully the new young Priests coming out of the Seminaries are appreciating that traditions should not be thrown away so easily. Those that are sent to Rome from the UK can Celebrate Mass in Latin and they know what rubrics are - and obey.

Times will change - but will there be people there to see this ?

In sorrow Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

I share your sorrow.

It must be something about the Byzantines that we missed that nonsense in the 70s, only to suffer it now.

That seminary of ours must be stuck in the 70s, and is doomed to repeat the RCs mistakes, 30 years later.

There is nothing more 'relevant' about the Revised Liturgy. It is only some liberal agenda led by feminists and liturgists.

But the truth will win out.

I was reading the life of Saint Athanasius the Great, the great defender of the Church. Do you know that he was exiled from his cathedral four times, and spent 17 of his 45 years as bishop on the road!

But he wouldn't compromise, he wouldn't give in, he spoke the truth, he defended the faith when he was a minority of one (even when it looked hopeless), and in the end, truth triumphed.

Many bishops abandoned the true faith in those days, but the true faith will endure. Congregations were torn apart, but there were always people willing to speak for the truth, and even endure persecution if necessary, for the sake of the tradition.

Saint Athanasius is a hero of mine.

The true faith is the strongest, when it is under threat.

Nick

I will still be adding "anthropous" when I chant the Creed.
And I'll bet you there will not be too many priests, (except the revisionists), who will stop saying that Christ is the "lover of mankind". To say that He is "Good and loves us all" makes me feel like I am in a kumbaya protestant kindergarten class.
Me too! If not for this holy man, we would all be Arians!

Prof. Thompson,

you state that you celebrate the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete during the fifth week, which is correct.

But what about the first Monday, Tuesday and Thursday of Great Lent?

Why do you not celebrate the Great Canon on these dates as well?

What does the Typicon call for on these dates?

The seminary website does not show the Great Canon services taking place on these dates:

http://www.byzcathsem.org/bcscalendar/calendar.asp#2/19

Also, do matins take place on Sunday mornings at the seminary? It is unclear from the calendar.

Do Vespers take place on Saturday evenings? It is unclear from the calendar.


Monomakh

Dear Monomakh,

Doesn't the Typikon call for Great Compline to be celebrated on EVERY evening of the Great Fast, Monday through Friday, except for the vigils of Akathistos Saturday and the Thursday of the Great Canon?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Jeff,

One miracle at a time!

Let me start out with this caveat, I don't own a typicon so, I looked on Father David's website where he used to have one online but he has discontiued that.

From my memory, (which is another way of saying for what it's worth) you are correct, compline is called for the first week. I seem to believe that the Great Canon would be either in conjunction or immediately following. I honestly don't know.

I wrote Monday, Tuesday and Thursday in my last post because I would have guessed that pre-sanctified would be on Wednesday and Friday.

Whenever I have a question like this I look at ROCOR websites and see what they are doing. I've found that they are the most consistent with the Typicon. I'll look throughout today and post what I find out, if anyone else has a Typicon I'd be interested to hear what you've found.

Monomakh

There are actually two liturgical traditions for this. According to the Slavic usage, Great Compline is prayed Monday through Friday. (*Although I do know that the Greek practice of Friday night Akathist is being done in Slavic Churches in Russia and here in the US.) In Greek usage, Great Compline is prayed Monday through Thursday with Small Compline and the Akathist on Friday evenings.

I should note that in my experience many Greek parishes in the US have Great Compline on Monday evening, Presanctified on Wednesday evening and Small Compline with Akathist on Friday evenings throughout the Great Fast. I have also found that many parishes (in my experience) who pray the Canon of St Andrew on M,T,H of Clean Week do so with Small versus Great Compline (although this is not what is prescribed in the Typikon). I have also noted that many/most parishes do not pray the Canon of St Andrew on Wednesday (although it is in the Typikon) but pray the Presanctified instead. I do know of a few parishes that do both on Wednesday -- but it makes for a very long night!

I also know of many parishes that pray the full Canon with Compline (usually Small but I have seen Great done) on Thursday night of the 5th week rather than with Orthros/Matins. I would assume this is because most laypeople are not able to come to the long service on a Thursday morning.

The same difference relates to the singing of the Akathist. While in the Slavic tradition, it is prayed as part of Orthros/Matins, in the Greek tradition it is prayed as part of Small Compline on Friday evening.

Dear Monomakh,

The Typikon does not generally say what services MUST be celebrated in non-monastic churches; that is the job of the bishop. In the Eparchy of Passaic, for example, the bishop has directed that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts MUST be celebrated weekly during the Great Fast, and at least once during the first three days of Great and Holy Week, and has encouraged pastors to celebrate it on each Wednesday and Friday during the Fast. Compared with the "daily Lenten Mass" of my youth, this is quite an improvement, even if some parishes could do more.

The Typikon DOES direct HOW the services are to be celebrated. In this case, Father David's Typikon is in accord with the tradional Slavic typika for the Great Fast, and is basically complete, and the services I have taken part in at the seminary (such as Saturday Vespers) include even those parts of the service, such as the saints' stichera, which are often omitted at our local OCA parish.

BTW, during the first week of the Fast, Compline with the Great Canon is celebrated on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. (I'll try to put more about it on the MCI website this weekend.) You might contact the rector of the Seminary if you are interested in the liturgical schedule; by no means are all the liturgical celebrations there on the public calendar on their website.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski