www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy For Us MEN And Our Salvation-Compendium of the Catechism

Ryan, Thank you for the invitation to voice my concerns. As a mother of a large family, I will tell you from experience, it is a thankless job. Woe to the women who looks to the world for a "thanks" for her own personal "fiat".Laying down your life by bearing and educating children created most importantly for the glory of God is most certainly a politically and socially incorrect thing to do much less advocate. I have been accosted in Wal-mart, getting into cars, and at "sophisticated" parties by not only unbelievers but by Catholics.They seem to think that my children might use too much of the world's resources, that I'm not using my college education, that I hold some secret condemnation of them for their lack of conformity with the Teachings of the Church with regard to procreation. Each "offence" is as varied as the person offended. I am quite clearly and efficiently dismissed.This is the spirit of the world. Believe me, I will not invite it into my house. Lest you get the wrong impression of me, I am considered intelligent, out-going, generous and fun to be around by those who know me. I am not the proverbial,"stick in the mud".

For years I have lamented the fact that the inherent dignity of women as the heart of homes, the principle of new life, clearly the sex responsible for the spirital, intellectual and moral formation of the young, is not only never addressed by priests but dismissed as untimely. We clearly imitate our Christ in our willingness to lay down our bodies as a sacrifice. In this we should glory! Also, I believe that the woman was especially created to show God's great mercy. We need to be encouraged to fullfill this role of generous mother by our Church. By inviting the false concerns of hedonism, and self-fullfillment into my spiritual home, I certainly do not feel believe that someone is concerned that I fit in and am welcomed.Let us teach and show men and women how the sacrifices particular to their sex will only bring joy and unity to both the home and the church. Inflaming people by instructing them to be offended is disigenuous. It clearly is ordered to serving a political agenda.

What does defending the Truth about Church Teachings against secular feminism have to do with sexual abuse??????? This tactic is just so convoluted, it raises my hackles. Because I am against Feminist propoganda, there is a possibility that I endorse sexual abuse????? Modernism and Feminism and all ther other new age 'ism's need to be crushed and obliterated, the same as any heresy. Did the Church Fathers speak softly to heretics? St Nicholas whipped the living daylights out of Arius. Politically correct, protestant feel good, offend no one, hide the truth under a bushel, watered down, weak kneed Christianity? No thanks. I'll stick with God and the Church, and defy the New Arians to say something about it.

Alexandr

Alexandr

Great post. I think it might have been St. Basil the Great who refused to enter a public bath because a known, contumacious, heretic was at the same bath. We need to develop the same sense of outrage when God's Truth is attacked. Dealing with what the Catholic Church has called a "material" heretic is one thing. That person is one who is in error, but is of good will. Such a person should be give the benefit of the doubt. But, Modernism, as defined by Pope St. Pius X, and Radical Feminism are poisons, and their advocates are deliberately open enemies of Jesus Christ and everything He teaches.

Dn. Robert

Well stated Alexandr!




Ryan,

Why do you keep bringing this up? I don't think anyone has condoned or even hinted at condoning the abuse of girls and/or women. And, if you are going to state this why not state the opposite. I do know of several cases of wives abusing their husbands. Yes, I mean physical abuse. So, in YOUR line of thought we need to remember those men who have been abused. What are those men thinking? What sensitivities do we need to protect them? What if a little boy had a very abusive mother and now he is terrified of a women (yes, we have all heard of such things). And the thought of "mother" throws him into a panic or depression.

Where does this lead us? Where does it end? We become frozen in fear and cannot speak. Of course, the devil delights in freezing us in fear.

Ryan, maybe you're not aware, but recently Traditional Catholics have been under attack for hate speech. There is a real danger here to suppress the Truth. Be careful that you are not following this spirit of the world! No one on the list has been using hate speech. And NONE OF US is condoning abuse, weather it be done to children, women or men or any of GOD'S creation.

Ryan, I will be praying for you.

Blessed is our GOD!
jody

This is no hate speech, this is the Truth. And the Truth can be really tough. Sorry, I didn't include a Saint from the East when I listed the examples of charity. I would like to reference one now.
jody

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem: "Abhor all heretics...heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a `brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said `Hail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, `I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of the Church)

What is now part of the unofficial record of the Revised Liturgy is that taking men out of Creed and Great Doxology (and some psalms) and mankind out of the Liturgy is not bringing unity to our Church and is offending many. This offense is not unfounded.

How can we ever truly love those for whom the Revised Liturgy has been altered (ie people of the modern world) when we cannot even love our own and take their concerns seriously?

The response from Fr. Petras on this issue (when the this Revised Liturgy was a thread in Faith and Worship in 2005 before I ever joined this forum--and I paraphrase him, but accurately for lack of time to find the comments again and quote the directly--but I will find them if you don't believe me) was that some people opposed "abolition" in the time of slavery and people like that have a right to be unhappy.

That cavalier attitude which continues to show its ugly head is a lack of pastoral concern for those who oppose the revisionist language. The reason that there is a lack of pastoral concern for these men and women(and I include myself in this group) is that both Rome (as it has expressed itself in Liturgiam Authenticam) and our Bishops can't both be right on the "inclusive" language issue. The fact that both cannot be right angers those who have the power and the duty to make corrections. I do not know why they will not make these simple and accurate corrections, but I have yet to see an argument that makes any sense and yet I hear, "be obedient." Here the Bishops have lead by example. They didn't follow Rome in Liturgiam Authenticam and now many parishoners won't follow them. Maybe this is the original sin that Fr. Loya is speaking of. When the head rebels, the body is sure to follow in rebellion. That is how Augustine explains the fact that our bodies began to rebel after the original fall of man, for it was after the fall that Adam and Eve realized they were naked.

The failure to listen to the concerns of wives and mothers who are quielty persecuted by the world which demands this "inclusive" nonsense and does not respect the silent martyrdom of true feminists who are having, rearing and educating children, shows a serious lack of pastoral concern, for these wives and mothers who don't have a lot of time to write Bishops.

Thank you Im!

Your post brings me to tears. I can accept the persecution from the world. I expect this persecution from the world, and I even rejoice in it. BUT persecution from the Church? These are dark days indeed.

Daily, I cry for my children. The crosses I bear are NOTHING compared to what they will bear in the future. I raise them with the faith of our Fathers (the best I can). Often I remind myself, we are raising martyrs (white, red or green?). What an intense reality in a dark world. But, a peace envelopes us as the day turns darker. The darker things get, the more we purify ourselves and the more we are strengthened. The darker things get the "brighter" the light.

I am blessed to personally know another family who is on the same path as we are. How many families out there have no one to support them? No one to talk too (outside of the family). May GOD sustain you in these times.

Blessed is our GOD!
jody
Ps I would write one hundred letters, IF I believed it would make one ounce of difference.

Yet, when the good fathers of the Council saw this their immediate reaction was to remove St. Nicholas from the episcopate. It was only when the Mother of God intevened that they changed their minds. Their reaction reveals that the action of "whipping" runs contrary to the general sense of the Gospel's teaching about love. Remember, it was said of our Lord that he did not break a bruised reed or extinquish a smoldering flame. It was his gentleness that distinguished him from the power-mongers of the world. And it was this gentleness that he calls us to emulate: He who wants to be first must be servant of all. Blessed are the meak ...

I must admit that I become very afraid when I hear violence being associated with the Christian faith. We have enough violence in our past to repent of -- the last thing we should be doing is recommending more violence, whether it be the violence of words or deeds. I have read the quotes that have been posted and must admit that I not only lack the discernment of the saints but I also lack their ability to "be angry and sin not." My anger, even when it is expressed against so-called "wickedness", consumes me and destroys my inner peace. I know that any anger rooted in passion cannot accomplish the righteousness of God -- for this is exactly what St. James says (human anger cannot achieve the righteousness of God). I always remember the counsels of St. John of Kronstadt who advised his spiritual children who were parents to avoid disciplining their children if the only way they could discipline was to do so in anger. According to St. John, words that come from human anger push people further away from the Truth. Our holy mother, Gabriella, also counseled that words that come from human anger also engage the egos of the people we are talking with and thus push them further from the humility that is requried of all of us to see the truth. Better to be silent, said she, than speak in anger.

My favorite quote (and to me this is a quote that "trumps" all of the quotes that have been shared) comes from St Elizabeth the Grand Duchess: "There is no evil in the heart of a human being that self-sacrificial love can not overcome." And she proved it -- all the way to the bottom of the quarry -- peaceful love and passive non-resistance always trumps "whipping".

As I look over my life, I have been very wrong about many things in the past. I have believed wrong things, taught wrong things and practiced wrong things. I also have to admit that I have been whipped a lot in my life (unfortunately, almost always by people who claimed to be speaking for God). But in my experience, when I have come to see my wrong it was never because someone "whipped" me out of my wrong way of thinking or acting but always because a few people "loved" me out of wrong by their kind words and patient non-resistance.

P.S. If you read the story of St. Nicholas carefully, I don't think that it is fair to speak of him "Whipping the daylights out of Arius." What he did was slap Arius across the face as a gut reaction to his blasphemy. Quite a different action than "whipping the daylights" out of him.

PrJ,

Not sure this quote helps or not, but I read it a while back, and it hit me between the eyes and helped me. Might I suggest you spend some time reading through the whole chapter 7 in Ecclesiates? I think I need to take my own advice! This will be my next reading for today. ~~jody

"It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to the house of feasting: for in that we are put in mind of the end of all, and the living thinketh what is to come. Anger* is better than laughter: because by the sadness of the countenance the mind of the offender is corrected. The heart of the wise is where there is mourning, and the heart of fools where there is mirth."

* Anger... That is, correction, or just wrath and zeal against evil.

What translation are you using? The word is best translated here as "sorrow". (I have checked my lexicon and while it is true that the word can be translated as anger, it is clear from the context that the more normal meaning of the word should be used here.). Therefore, the verse shoudl read: "Sorrow is better than laughter." Since Hebrew poetry is built upon parallelism, the parallel construction to this statement is the statement: "by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better".

The first place anger is mentioned in this passage is v. 9: "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry; for anger resteth in the bosum of fools." (Although it is possible that the word should also be translated as "grief" or "sorrow" here as well.) And then in a passage perhaps very applicable to the content of this thread, the author goes on to state: "Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? For thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this."

In other words, it is almost as if the author recognized the human tendency to get angry (or come to grief) when we see things changing (always for the worst, never for the better) and he warns us against passionate anger in the face of change. SO his advice is clear: "Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight which he hath made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God hath set the one over against the other to end that man should find nothing after him."

The long and the short of it for the author is then the amazing advice: "Be no righteous over much" (Don't be too concerned about being too good) and "Be no over much wicked" (On the other hand, don't be too evil either) -- Why? "For why shouldest thou destroy thyself?" (You will end up losing too much sleep if you are too righteous -- too many things will bother your peace.) "For why shouldest thou die before thy time?" (You will end up getting shot and killed if you are too evil.)

This of course sounds very strange to us today and does raise the question of how Christians should interpret Ecclesiastes. But I think it does illustate the point I was trying to make. Internal peace is one of the most precious gifts a person can receive from God. We should zealously guard that peace and thus not overconcern ourselves with things "above our pay grade" (to use a contemporary expression). Pay attention to the things over which you have control and leave the rest to God seems to be the advice of Ecclesiastes. After all, you're going to die soon anyway!

I would imagine that Christ overturning the moneychangers tables in the temple was "passionate anger ".The point I understand is

Love God and do as you will. Then there is inner peace as the conscience is clear even when we are justly angry.

This is exactly what the Fathers deny. Christ was sinless, i.e., passion-less, in His anger.

As the story of St Nicholas demonstrates, it is possible for saints and for Christ to be angry without sinning. There is a wonderful story of St Athanasius of the Holy Mountain. Once after he had rudely reprimanded a young novice, his spiritual son asked him, "Why did you get so angry, Father?" To which the Saint replied, "I was only pretending to be angry for his sake. Inside I was at peace. My heart was not disturbed at all."

I would like to say that I am at that level of personal sanctity but when I am reprimanding my children verbally -- I am usually angry both on the inside and the outside

Well, who was right, the bishops or the Theotokos? The fact that the Theotokos intervened showed Her approval of St. Nicholas, and not the bishops. Did Christ call the pharisees "poor victims of Roman oppression" or "unfortunate products of a dysfunctional political /economic situation"? No, He called them a den of vipers. Did He go into the temple and say "Aw shucks guys, this isn't nice"? NO!!!! HE OVERTURNED THEIR TABLES AND ACCUSED THEM OF TAKING HIS FATHERS HOUSE AND TURNING IT INTO A DEN OF THIEVES!!!!

There is a certain atmosphere attached to some of the postings lately, that almost breathes contempt, of the trials and tribulations our forefathers had when protecting the faith. We are called to be "Podvizhniki", spiritual warriors, Defenders of the Faith, not some emasculated, timid version of mice. The Great Saints were all fearless in their condemnation of heresy. Are we called to do less? Some are just too comfortable here in 21st century America. But the times are coming. When America has her Bolshevik Revolution, and the AntiChrist puts their Faith to the test, lets see just how well some protect the faith. To tell you the truth, what we are seeing is the product of decades of feminization in the west, with the result being men who are afraid to speak the truth, feminized, emasculated pale shadows of what men should be. How sad......

Alexandr, whose Cossack blood is boiling!

I have wondered about this. (The claim that religion has been feminized actually came out of some scholarly work on the 19th century development of religion in America. I am not convinced by the scholarship, but that is for a discussion of American history.) As Orthodox/Eastern Christians, the Mother of God is the ultimate example and we, both males and females, are called the Bride of Christ. I also remember that Paul Evdokimov suggested that, according to the Orthodox tradition, the feminine is closer to the authentic spiritual image than the male. He suggested that women do not have to fight against themselves to embrace holiness in the way that men do. I wonder ...

Never before on this earth has there been such a huge number of people who freely and easily, without any shame, without any pangs of conscience "call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).

Archbishop Averky of Syracuse (of Blessed Memory)