www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Latin Apostolic Admin of Russia condemns Greek Catholics?

The most dangerous errors are the ones that are mostly true. (Secular humanism is a counterfeit that is about 75% or more Christian morality.) All false religions have some evil in them but that doesn�t mean their sincere members are evil people � something neither the pharisee/bigot nor the indifferentist understands. (And, conversely, like Vatican II says and I think Kurt holds, many religions have some part of the truth.) Someone once gave me these two quotations, which are true: heresy is often the intellectual vengeance of a suppressed truth (Vernon Staley, a 19th-century high Anglican clergyman in England) and that �all heresies are true�, but they�re wrong because they ignore or reject everything else that�s true, only zeroing in on one or two truths at the expense of everything else.

I agree with Bob that the activity in Russia has an element of evil. That news blurb about the martyrs may make it onto my site.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-31-2001).]

Given a choice of Scott Hahn or John Paul II, I am sticking with the later, you can go with the former.

K.

From the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity:


The Pope [John Paul II] applauds the positive results of the ecumenical movement since Vatican II, describing these achievements as "truly an immense gift of God, one which deserves our gratitude" (41). He is especially thankful that "the 'universal brotherhood of Christians' has become a firm ecumenical conviction" (42). This growth in mutual esteem since the Council is shown by the shift in ecumenical vocabulary, the recognition of the oneness of Baptism, the growing convergence regarding translations of Scripture and liturgical worship, the deeper appreciation of the common witness of holiness, and practical cooperation.

In the past thirty years the terminology used by Catholics to refer to other Christians has changed. "Separated brethren," the common designation in the first stages of the ecumenical movement, has been replaced by terms such as "other Christians," "others who have received Baptism," or "Christians of other Communities." John Paul believes that this new terminology more readily evokes "the deep communion -linked to the baptismal character-which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions" (42). According to the Pope, these terms better reflect the profound ties which unite believers in the Body of Christ.

The Christian brotherhood which the Holy Father praises is not "a large-hearted philanthropy or a vague family spirit." Rather, it is rooted "in recognition of the oneness of Baptism and the subsequent duty to glorify God in his work" (42). Because Baptism establishes a sacramental bond of unity among all those reborn by water and the Spirit, it is the ultimate foundation of all ecumenical endeavors.

John Paul also notes that ecumenical translations of the Bible and liturgical practices shared by Christians are signs of increasing communion. The liturgical renewal, for instance, has not been restricted to the Catholic Church. Many Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West, taking their cue from Vatican II's reform of the liturgy, have begun to prize liturgical signs, to celebrate the Lord's Supper more frequently, and to use common cycles of liturgical readings in their worship.

More personal and frequent contact among Christians has also fostered a deeper awareness that the fruits of holiness are found among all believers. Despite the tragedy of division, many "brothers and sisters have preserved an attachment to Christ and to the Father so radical and absolute as to lead even to the shedding of blood" (83). According to the Holy Father, the martyrs, who come from all Churches and Ecclesial Communities, are "the most powerful proof that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the Gospel" (12). They are a source of sure hope for those seeking unity; "God will do for them [Christians] what he did for their Saints" (84).

Lastly, since the Council, relations among the baptized have been increasingly marked by working together for the good of humanity. Not merely humanitarian action, such ecumenical cooperation draws its inspiration from the Gospel and takes place in political, economic, cultural, and social affairs. This practical ecumenism is especially concerned with the defense of human dignity, social justice, and peace. For the Pope, these shared practical efforts represent "a true school of ecumenism, a dynamic road to unity. Unity of action leads to unity of faith" (40). Common Christian witness in the service of the world "has the clear value of a joint witness to the name of the Lord. It is also a form of proclamation, since it reveals the face of Christ" (75).

Theological principles

Two main theological principles lie at the foundation of the Holy Father's ecumenical vision: his belief in the "oneness" of the Church, and his conviction that the Catholic Church is in communion, even if imperfectly, with other Churches and Ecclesial Communities.

The Pope teaches that the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities share in "a certain, though imperfect communion" with the Catholic Church because of "the elements of sanctification and truth" present in them (11). These positive elements, the foremost of which is Baptism, inevitably tend toward visible unity; they are "by their nature a force for the reestablishment of unity" (49).
If prayer is the soul of the ecumenical renewal, then theological dialogue is the privileged instrument for bringing it about. In the light of "today's personalist way of thinking," dialogue is "an indispensable step along the path toward human self-realization" which involves "an exchange of gifts" between communities (28).

How is this ecumenical dialogue to be carried out? First, the participants must be convinced of "the degree of communion already present" among them (49). Furthermore, writes the Holy Father, "each side must presuppose in the other a desire for reconciliation, for unity in truth. For this to happen, any display of mutual opposition must disappear" (29). The laying to rest of former polemics requires a mutual spirit of conversion to the Gospel. Authentic dialogue must, moreover, be marked "by a common quest for truth" (33).
Inevitably, disagreements in matters of faith will emerge. When this occurs, the dialogue partners should face them "in a sincere spirit of fraternal charity, of respect for the demands of one's own conscience and of the conscience of the other part, with profound humility and love for the truth" (39).

Like John XXIII, John Paul II believes that "the distinction between the deposit of faith and the formulation in which it is expressed" is a fundamental principle of ecumenical dialogue (81). Sadly, in the past, "intolerant polemics and controversies have made incompatible assertions out of what was really the result of two different ways of looking at the same reality" (38).

Kurt,

What's your point in all of this? That doesn't mean anything because the Protestants are STILL going to convert Orthodox and Catholics into their "religion."

Even the Pope is aware of the problems in South America and expressed great concern for it. I've read that on the Catholic News Services not too long ago.

Also, there's some rumor (from the Vatican)that there's a big hope in the Vatican that the next pope would be from South America, which would restore the Catholic faith in South America and bring people back!

spundas,

regretable decision giving up drinking for Lent. I think you could use a thimbleful of scotch to calm you down.

Stick with the offical documents of the Holy See rather than your rumors. Learn to love rather than hate. Try to stay regular.

Kurt

Kurt,

Who are you to judge me? What makes you say that I hate? I don't hate. I'm only stating the facts about the Protestants and their bad tactics. It is you who needs a drink to clear up your head, not mine. I'm perfectly fine, thank you.

spd

I have to reply here too !!

Kurt I have lived down south before and I have to say that the Protestants do teach heretical things and they are very and I repeat very anti Catholic down there. So you just keep on defending them, all you are doing is selling out your Catholic brethren.
Let us remember historical facts here. The Protestants were killing Ruthenians in their war against the Hapsburgs and Bathory families of Austria and Hungary. The Ruthenian churches were in the Protestant revolter's way, that is one of the reasons that the clergy sought protection under Rome leading to the Union of Uzhorod. Also read the story behind the weeping Icon of Klokochov Slovakia. You will not find "Sympathetic" Protestants there now would you ?? The fundamental Protestants are like wolves in sheeps clothing , preying on the week , uninformed Christians of eastern Europe and tricking them with their all to easy lackluster , liberal ,heresy of protestantism.

You are entitled to your opinion. The Holy Father and I are entitled to ours.

Kurt


This uninformed Christian thinks you mean "weak". Or are these Protestants limiting their evil deeds to seven day?

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 04-01-2001).]

Oh Poor Kurt! How IGNORANT you are! The Holy Father shares same opinion as I do as well as most folks. If the Protestant Churches are "fine" in the eyes of the Holy Father, then why didn't he say that they are fully one and united with Catholic/Orthodox Church?

In fact, recently a dialogue between RC and Lutherens are starting to fail because differences in Theology of Eucharist. That is not an opinion, it's a fact. The Catholic Church is also having problems having dialogue with the Bapists very recently too. So, basically the dialogue with the Protestants aren't cutting it...unless the Catholic Church gives into Heresy...which I know the Catholic Church would NEVER give our Faith whichs given to us and handed down onward from the Holy Apostles to present time.

You know, that just means that the Pope will NOT compromise and give into their herectical beliefs. That's just one minor example that the Holy Father shares perception of Protestants as I do.

Tsk tsk. You know better than that. Are you a former Protestant? If not, then tsk tsk, you shouldn't be amoung the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Oh, boy, you have a lot to learn, boy. You just need to wake up and smell the coffee. And next time, I will try my best not to make any further responses to your idiotic comments which is so weak and compromising in your Catholic Character. You are just not worth dealing or make responses with. I have better things to do than to make comments about your statements.

I'm more concerned with unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches and prevent it from devouring of wolves hidden in sheep's clothing. I just feel sorry for you. Forgive me.

Sadly, we cannot say that the Catholic Church is fully one with either the Protestant nor Orthodox Churches. The Holy Father, while deeply sorrowful over the painful divisions within the Christian family, affirms that both the Protestant and Orthodox Churches are means of grace and bring people to Christ. I don't know if the Holy Father specifically uses that theological term you offer --"fine" --, but he certainly affirms that while they lack a certain fullness (as does the Catholic Church, not dogmatically but in charity and love), they are grace filled.


Dialogue is singular, therefore you should say "a dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans IS starting to fail...". That a dialogue is "STARTING to fail" is something subjective. Therefore, you cannot follow it with something objective such as "that is not an opinion, it's a fact."

Have you considered the benefits of a remedial Catholic education?


I find this very erotic. Given that it is Lent, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't stimulate me this way.

Tell me, do you happen to own a feather boa?

Kurt




[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 04-01-2001).]

Kurt,

You are just sick!

Kurt,

Not only that you're sick. You are twisting my words. My english has never been good, you aren't my teacher. You are just cruel!

>>>Not only that you're sick. You are twisting my words. My english has never been good, you aren't my teacher. You are
just cruel! <<<

Uh oh, Kurt:

Somebody else is on to you. Maybe time to change your MO?

First of all, I thought the throwing around of the "H" word was was not something that was tolerated in this forum. I realize the moderator can't be online 24/7, so the folks who post to this forum need to police there own "mouths."

As a former member of a Protestant Church and whose extended family is from both the Protestant and Roman Churches, I take extreme exception to the use of the word "heretic." You call my mother and deceased father heretics in my presence and see how far you get. How dare you.

For one, you do not have the authority to do so.

Two, you show an insensitivity to the fact that the Protestant "church" is composted of a very large number of independent "churches" whose beliefs run the entire spectrum...from high church Anglican to the "non-denominational" churches of the tele-evangelists. Are some of these folks anti-Catholic? Of course they are. But I don't hate them. I feel sorry for them and try to figure out why they have such animosity. In my limited experience, I've come to see that many times the reason for their vehemence is not religious per se, but has to do with differences in culture, ethnicity, and socio-economics. Religion is a good cover and a great excuse for pograms, wars, and discrimination. How often the word heretic has been used by both "sides" in the past to justify crimes against God and humanity.

Three, if you have read other posts on this forum you would know that heresy implies a "choice." I'm sorry but my ancestors who were born in Protestant Germany and later in this country long after Martin Luther, who had no chance for schooling, and who used all their energy to survive day to day, didn't have the time or resources to delve into the study of religion. But they did make sure their children were raised as children of God, with dignity and respect for themselves and for others. The were raised with a love of God and a love of neighbor. They did have a choice about this, not about whether they were Roman Catholic or Prot. or Hindu.

KURT: You go, boy!

Dear Rick,

Saint Augustine would agree with you!

He said that the children of those who had separated from the Church long ago cannot ever be called "heretics" as they had no choice in the matter.

Also, the term "heretic" is bandied about much too frequently.

Just what constitutes an "heretic" is something that is in dispute.

One professor I know defined it as "someone who doesn't like the movie, It's A Wonderful Life . . ."

In any event, Kurt is right in drawing on the gentle example and words of the Pope in this.

Alex