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I think it is also uncharitable, if not something far worse, to refer to the Protestants as using evil. The situation is a difficult one and name calling does nothing to help. I am somewhat troubled by the evangelization western sects and churches are engaging in, as I am troubled by the ROC using the civil arm to oppress other religions.

Of course, the Protestant missionaries don't in fact use icons as their flocks tend to come from the non-Orthodox 50% of the Russian population.

I would invite you to use the edit feature on your post.

K.

Kurt writes:

[Of course, the Protestant missionaries don't in fact use icons as their flocks tend to come from the non-Orthodox 50% of the Russian population.]

Tend to disagree with you on this one Kurt. As stated here, the Ukrainian Lutheran Church uses the Litrugy of St John Chrysostom. If you do a search on it you will see a website that has a picture of their service book with a three bar cross. They have Icons and memorial (Parastas) services.
The Russian Baptists are building churches with cupolas and three bar crosses. How many Baptist Churches here do you know of with onion domes and three bar Crosses in America?
I live in Northeast Philly where there is a large Russian immigrant population. If you go down Bustleton Ave there is a Church with a sign written in Russian that simply says 'Slavic Christian Church'. It is in fact a Lutheran Church with a female Russian minister. They did an article on this particular church in one of the local papers about a year ago. How surprised I was to read that as one enters the Church one can light a candle in front of the Icons that are placed in the vestibule. Also that they have the forty day memorial service for the dead.
Now, lets see...Protestant churches with cupolas, 3 bar crosses, Orthodox Liturgies, Icons, prayers for the dead, etc. Sounds like the Protestant Unia to me! And deception at it's worst.

Now, now, Bob, don't muddy the matter with the truth!

(wink)

Brendan

None of that answers the question as to how many members of their congregation were Orthodox before they became Protestant. The suggest that any church that uses the Russian languague other than the Orthodox is "evil" just doesn't cut it.

K.

Kurt writes:

[The suggest that any church that uses the Russian languague other than the Orthodox is "evil" just doesn't cut it.]

Huh? I said a lot more than that. Perhaps you should reread my post.

Bob

Bob, maybe you could sort through and tell me what aspects of Russian Protestantism are evil.

K.

Well well well K-

I shouldn't have used the word "evil." But what the Protestants are doing are very very bad! Why convert the Orthodox? They are already Christians. Why don't they leave the Catholic and Orthodox alone? Those two churches have true foundation and fullness of faith, with valid Sacraments and priesthood and have Apostolic Succession?

Protestants are also doing that to Roman Catholics down in South America. You see, these people down there and probably people in Russian Orthodox, may be ignorant or uneducated mostly due to their poverty. How can they send their children to School to learn about religion if they don't have the means to make it happen...like no transportation, lack of school building, having poor education levels to read a book, or whatever other problems? When they see the Rich American Protestants, they may think that they know what they're doing and know what they're talking about. You see, the Protestants are HERETICS. Now, that is not a name calling. It's the fact. Heretic means that one is teaching Christian faith in error. If the Protestants don't teach or believe anything in error, then they all would be Catholic/Orthodox. That is why we must stand armed against these wolves in sheeps' clothing.

How dare they exploit God's Holy Church for their own heretic teachings? I don't think they are evil people, but they are lost and don't have fullness of faith. The devil has no reason to bother with them, he's busy trying to disrupt the Catholic and the Orthodox Church...because he KNOWS which Church is true and which is false.

Believe me, I KNOW.

spdundas

I forgot to add this:

The Catholic and Orthodox Church may be part of the blame. We haven't re-vived our own people's faith, re-evangelizing, re-newing, etc.

That's why the Holy Father of Rome kept saying over and over and over..."Evangelize!!! Re-evangelize from within for within!!!"

We need to make extra effort to take care of our people's faith first before we go out to evangelize non-Christians. Why? Because if our own people don't know the faith that well, then how can we evangelize the non-Christians???

Let's all rise and evangelize to all corners of the Earth!!!

spdundas

spundas,

What portion of Russian Protestants are converts from Orthodoxy? I have heard very few are.

K.

Kurt writes:

[Bob, maybe you could sort through and tell me what aspects of Russian Protestantism are evil.]

As a Roman Catholic, you should already know that answer.

I once watched a program on TBN where an American Evangelical preacher was in Red Square dressed in tight jeans, cowboy hat, cowboy boots, rope tie, and holding a Bible UNDER HIS ARM PIT while he strummed a guitar and sang that glorious Protestant hymn called...'A cold bottle of beer won't wash away your sins'. At the end of the hymn he had the nerve to stand there with St Basil's Cathedral behind him and ask for money so he could bring Jesus to the Russians and teach them how to say 'Slava Boho'! The Russians have been saying 'Slava Boho' for over a thousand years Kurt!
And I'm not making this up either.

I keep this news release to read when I hear of such things and how some non-Orthodox malign or pooh pooh what Orthodoxy suffered during those terrible years of communism -

MOSCOW [RNS] - Some 200,000 Orthodox clergy, many crucified, scalped and other wise tortured, were killed during the communist era in the former Soviet Union, a Russian commission reported here on November 7, 1995. Another 500,000 believers were persecuted, and 40,000 churches destroyed between 1922 and 1980, the report said.
"Clergymen were crucified on churches 'holy gates', shot, scalped and strangled", said Alexander Yakovlev, head of the Commission of the Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression which prepared the report for Russian President Boris Yeltsin. "I was especially shocked by the accounts of priests turned into columns of ice in winter," Yakovlev continued, adding that the commission unearthed documents showing that as early as 1918, Vladimir Lenin had ordered a campagain of "merciless terror against priests."

And all this so some American Protestant can teach the Russians how to say 'Slava Boho' (which they already know) and sing 'A cold bottle of beeer won't wash away your sins'?
I don't think so Kurt -

Romans 15:20-21

And so I have made it my aim to preach the Gospel, NOT WHERE CHRIST WAS NAMED, LEST I SHOULD BUILD ON ANTHER MAN'S FOUNDATION, but as it is written:

"To whom he was not announced, they shall see; And those who have not heard shall understand."

As a Catholic my Church teaches us Protestants are our brothers and sister in Christ.

Picking out a single instance of an action which might be nutty but hardly evil proves anything.

Every decent person carries a great sadness in their heart over the sufferings of the Orthodox Churches under communism. Further, I know I and most Catholics ferverently hope tremendous contributions Orthodoxy has made to the ecumencial movement in modern times.
that the Orthodox Church can rebuild itself and be an effective witness of Christ in Russia.

I will stand by my previous post.

Kurt,

Are you just plain stupid or what? FYI I was raised Roman Catholic...but now Byzantine.

Okay, Protestants may be our brother and sisters, but not fully. They are HERETICS. How can you stand there and say "I stand by my previous posts" when the Protestants are preaching to the Catholics and Orthodox FALSE Christian FAITH, DOCTRINE AND BELIEFS??? That is exactly what the devil wants!

All they really care about is getting more numbers of people in the church in order to make some more money for themselves. They have NOTHING! Not even the Scriptures! If they really know every part of the Scriptures, I mean every part of it, then they would all be Catholic and Orthodox! Everything, I mean everything in the Bible teaches reflects on the Holy Church! They don't even have the true Sacraments! They are just poor! We are so spiritually wealthy compared to them.

Don't get me wrong, the Protestants may get to heaven before some Orthodox or Catholic ones.

You go right ahead and turn your head away from the truth. The truth is...that right now the Protestants are "killing" the faith of the people in South America and Russia. Even the greatest Roman Catholic apologetics would back me up on this...including Scott Hahn and Tim Staples (both used to be stanch anti-Catholic...so devouted to draw Catholics away from true faith into their Protestant fold).

WAKE UP KURT!!! I mean WAKE UP!!!

Kurt,

Are you just plain stupid or what? FYI I was raised Roman Catholic...but now Byzantine.

Okay, Protestants may be our brother and sisters, but not fully. They are HERETICS. How can you stand there and say "I stand by my previous posts" when the Protestants are preaching to the Catholics and Orthodox FALSE Christian FAITH, DOCTRINE AND BELIEFS??? That is exactly what the devil wants!

All they really care about is getting more numbers of people in the church in order to make some more money for themselves. They have NOTHING! Not even the Scriptures! If they really know every part of the Scriptures, I mean every part of it, then they would all be Catholic and Orthodox! Everything, I mean everything in the Bible teaches reflects on the Holy Church! They don't even have the true Sacraments! They are just poor! We are so spiritually wealthy compared to them.

Don't get me wrong, the Protestants may get to heaven before some Orthodox or Catholic ones.

You go right ahead and turn your head away from the truth. The truth is...that right now the Protestants are "killing" the faith of the people in South America and Russia. Even the greatest Roman Catholic apologetics would back me up on this...including Scott Hahn and Tim Staples (both used to be stanch anti-Catholic...so devouted to draw Catholics away from true faith into their Protestant fold).

WAKE UP KURT!!! I mean WAKE UP!!!

Kurt,

Are you just plain stupid or what? FYI I was raised Roman Catholic...but now Byzantine.

Okay, Protestants may be our brother and sisters, but not fully. They are HERETICS. How can you stand there and say "I stand by my previous posts" when the Protestants are preaching to the Catholics and Orthodox FALSE Christian FAITH, DOCTRINE AND BELIEFS??? That is exactly what the devil wants!

All they really care about is getting more numbers of people in the church in order to make some more money for themselves. They have NOTHING! Not even the Scriptures! If they really know every part of the Scriptures, I mean every part of it, then they would all be Catholic and Orthodox! Everything, I mean everything in the Bible teaches reflects on the Holy Church! They don't even have the true Sacraments! They are just poor! We are so spiritually wealthy compared to them.

Don't get me wrong, the Protestants may get to heaven before some Orthodox or Catholic ones.

You go right ahead and turn your head away from the truth. The truth is...that right now the Protestants are "killing" the faith of the people in South America and Russia. Even the greatest Roman Catholic apologetics would back me up on this...including Scott Hahn and Tim Staples (both used to be stanch anti-Catholic...so devouted to draw Catholics away from true faith into their Protestant fold).

WAKE UP KURT!!! I mean WAKE UP!!!

Russian News Agency Hit for Distorting Interview

Interfax Altered Kondrusiewicz´s Comments

MOSCOW, MAR. 30, 2001 (Zenit.org).- A news agency deliberately altered a Catholic leader's comments in a recent interview, in what the bishops' conference calls a clear sign that the Russian media are untrustworthy.

An official statement of the Russian Catholic bishops' conference affirms that Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz, apostolic administrator of Catholics in Northern European Russia, was unfairly treated by the Interfax agency.

In the interview, some excerpts of which were published by ZENIT on March 23, Moscow's Catholic archbishop was referring to violent incidents which occurred in Ukraine in the early 1990s, especially in the Lvov Diocese. That is when, in keeping with the law, Greek-Catholics began to recover some of the temples expropriated by Stalin in 1944 and handed over to the Orthodox Church.

The archbishop complained that his comments were altered by Interfax agency in its news account.

The archbishop condemned "violent methods as a means of re-establishing historical justice." But he never blamed those acts of violence on Greek-Catholics.

In fact, he contended, Interfax censured even more important words, as he had said: "Similar controversies [between Greek-Catholics and Orthodox] must be resolved in Ukraine; on the contrary, categoric affirmations of people living abroad, in Russia, Poland, Italy, only aggravate the situation. In particular, I feel authorized to judge this, as I don't live in Ukraine, and I have not been there for a long time."

The archbishop denied having said that "at the beginning of the '90s, the Greek-Catholics destroyed three dioceses in Western Ukraine, taking possession of hundreds of Orthodox churches."

This "highly emotional" affirmation "seems obvious to Interfax's correspondent, as it is widespread in Russia, but I do not share it," Archbishop Kondrusiewicz said.

ZE01033021