www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Russian lawmakers move to recriminalize homosexuality

Exactly. However, some of my fundamentalist protestant friends seem obsessesed with this particular sin, but rarely mention any of the others.

To clarify, I do not use the term in this way. I believe I used homosexual activity above, because I do believe there is a difference between those who have SSA and those who decide that they identify themselves by that attraction and wish to act on it.

Those who are struggling with their SSA are the same as those who struggle with lust, greed, jealousy, or any other negative inclination. I respect those people greatly. Those who take pride in their attraction, even to the point of using it as a (or the) main identification for who they are I equate to any other person who is prideful and boasting of his sins. I cannot respect that. Nor can I support the passage of laws which will support that.

I do not fear or hate those who identify themselves as homosexual or who act on it. I wish only for them to find dignity in their being made in the image and likeness of God, no matter what their struggles, and to believe that they can succeed in living a life of holiness the way God intended them to do.

In response to John's post CDL wrote:

"Like the extreme and dangerous lies and exaggerations that so many have fallen for concerning the Inquisition you seem to have fallen for the lies and exaggerations regarding the horrible way homosexualists have been treated over the years."

I couldn't disagree more. As far as criminalizing homosexual acts, I think it is inconsistent with Catholic teaching to do so unless you criminalize all sexual sins. As I've done in the past, I look to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The Church is clear in teaching that homosexual acts are always sinful. I don't think anyone here is arguing against that. The Church also teaches that homosexual acts should not be condoned, so I think that those who oppose state sanction of same-sex relationships are on the side of the Church in doing so. However, with respect to criminalizing homosexual acts, I'm troubled. Concerning homosexuals, the CCC states, "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." If we criminalize homosexual acts, we subject them to unjust discrimination unless we also criminalize all sexual sins. Are we really prepared to do that? I hope not. I'm very sad to say that my father is still married to my mother but is living in an adulterous relationship. He knows that what he is doing is wrong. My sister and I both have expressed our anger and sadness at what he is doing. However, I have no desire to see him arrested, tried, and imprisoned. Do we want to make criminals of teenagers who engage in masturbation? I really don't think so. I agree with John that this is more about bigotry than anything else.
Ryan

One thing I would add, in all fairness to Dan, I do think that in our current situation, many do exaggerate the extent of discrimination against homosexuals. However, I think that in the past (including the not so distant past), they have been subjected to terrible discrimination and acts of hate.
Ryan

Dear Ryan,

I believe that in many states of the U.S. there have been, and may still be, laws making sodomy, incest, adultery, and even fornication among non-married persons illegal...

As all crimes must be for a good reason, the law against sodomy in the late 1800's was put on the books because it was considered 'a crime against nature'.

I would therefore assume, perhaps wrongly, but hopefully not so, that these other laws would also be on the books in Russia, since they too are sins...though the last two might require building jail space the length and breadth of all Syberia! LOL!

Alice

Dear Alice:

I appreciate your humor at the end of your post. But I would ask, can we, or should we,criminalize all sins? What about gluttony? I can see that as a "crime against nature." I feel like I can say that because of my personal experience with it. I have been guilty of that sin probably more than all others. I can say that it is not in accordance with nature to continue to eat to the point that you are sick. We have the witness of the Church to tell people what sexual sins are. I think beyond that, God is the one to judge them. And I think that Romans 1 teaches that the very condition in which those who engage in homosexual acts find themselves is God's judgment upon them. I don't think we need to add time spent in jail or prison to God's judgment.
In peace,
Ryan

Ah, Carson. So, the history books are wrong? Homosexuals weren't called "faggots" (which is Italian for 'sticks') and they weren't burned at the stake with the blessings of the Church? And, of course, the Bible has nothing in it about stoning homosexuals to death.

But, if we put homosexuals in prison for committing sodomy, then aren't we just putting them in a place where they will be sodomized all the more?

Joe

Dr. Eric. Holding the view that homosexuals should not be imprisoned, but showed be treated with compassion and tolerance is not advocating homosexual rights.

Joe

Well, to do a little psychoanalysis here, studies have shown that a large percentage of married straight men have had homoerotic fantasies at one point or another. And then we have the example of leading fundamentalist ministers who get caught with male prostitutes. There is some truth in Yoda's words to young Anakin skywalker, "Attachment leads to fear, fear to anger, and anger to the darkside...."

Joe

Ryan,

It wasn't so long ago when masturbation, adultery, fornication, etc. were crimes. Imagine the burden on society if we put all of the adulterers, fornicators, self-abusers, etc. in prison. Who would raise the children?

I am just as much against sexual sin as anyone, but why do Christians go ballistic over sexual sins but not over gossip, slander, defrauding the poor, etc.? I know, maybe this is red herring. Sorry, I feel a little agitated and frankly, I'm disappointed.

Joe

Alice,

Historically, what you say is accurate. If we were to reinstate sodomy laws today, then we would have to make sodomy illegal for everyone. Interestingly enough, that would mean even sodomy for married couples used as foreplay (and I have seen such things approved of in very traditional Catholic marriage manuals by Christopher West and others). And, we must remember that sodomy covers a whole variety of sexual acts. I guess the question I have is this; was it really a better society when all of these things were illegal and the states prosecuted people for them?

Joe

Yes, but what you are writing and what the Gay Rights advocates want are polar opposites. Do I need to post pictures from certain Gay Rights Parades?

Should they be killed or thrown in jail? (Especially in regards to your point above!) No, should it be a crime, yes. Do all persons breaking the speed limit or seat belt laws get tickets, no, but the threat is there to deter would be offenders.

Furthermore, I don't think I need to get into the physiology and morphology of why the acts are wrong... do I?

Attraction is one thing, acting on the attraction is another.

Why not repeal the laws against bestiality, polygamy, polygyny, and the like. "If Heather can have two mommies, why can't she have two mommies and a daddy?"

See how far we've come from where we should be?

For the record I'm in favor of outlawing divorce!

1 John 5:16-17

That's why.

Gossip is not a sin unto death, usually. This is where the Western mindset of mortal and venial sins comes in to play.

And for the record: willful murder, homosexual acts, oppression of the poor, and defrauding laborers of their wages are "Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengance." And I am opposed to them all!

WHOA!!! We are going all over the place here....Let's all stop jumping down each other's throat.

I believe that we will ALL agree that we do not believe that homosexuals should be thrown in jail.

I believe that we all agree that they should not be the object of hate crimes or *certain* types of discrimination.

I believe that we all agree that homosexuality is a sin, just like many other sins.

I believe that MANY of us also do not believe that homosexuals should parade their particular sin in our faces, and that we should accept it as wholesome.

Now getting to my own pet peeve, which Logos-Alexis said:

"the fact that, if the trends continue, the Russians will literally abort and contracept themselves out of existence within a matter of decades?"

I take personal offense with this. Family planning and certain types of contraception should NEVER be equated with the blatant murderous sin of abortion. Though I do not expect the Catholics here to agree with me, I remind all that Russia is a predominantly Orthodox country, and that the Orthodox church approaches family planning and types of artificial contraception in a pastoral way and not in the legalistic way of the RC Church.
Therefore, for the Orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS A SIN, without exception, and with every absolute, but contraception is not.

Now to conclude with my own opinion, that has been festering in me a long time now: I think that if the RC church would stop equating the two this way, and if they would take a more personal and pastoral approach to the reality behind the need for family planning these days, there would be less dissidence, and less pro-choice Catholics.

Another comment: JSMelkite said:

"Interestingly enough, that would mean even sodomy for married couples used as foreplay (and I have seen such things approved of in very traditional Catholic marriage manuals by Christopher West and others)."

First of all, I was not making a statement about this. I was stating the law as it is and why it is. Period. Let's not assume that everything one researches and shares is a personal statement.

Secondly, I find this quite curious. In traditional Orthodox circles this is considered GRAVE sin in marriage, punishable by a period of excommunication, and according to one Monastic Elder I had read, better a husband do this with a street harlot (he wasn't condoning adultery, he was just trying to make a point) than with his wife who is to be held in high esteem, holiness, and respect.

Back to Logos-Alexis' comment: Birth control, in the more traditional circles, is tolerated due to circumstance, but for the record, there are penances and periods of short ex-communication which also go along with it. In the other Orthodox churches, it is a matter of pastoral eikonomia, and as it is in the context of marriage, there is usually no penance involved.

I needed to comment on Logos-Alexis' comment which I found offensive. This is the Orthodox position, so such comments are out of line in charity. Unless one has fifteen children, please remember Christ's words: He who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Please do not engage me in pms about this. I have nothing more to say about it.

Sincerely,
In Christ,
Alice