www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Anglicanism may not last out the week

I praise God that as of this morning, Anglicanism will hold firm and not experience a schism but there may be a primate or two who chooses to go off on his own.

A blessed weekend to all.



Fr. Mike Dobrosky (Semi-Retired)
Mississippi

Episcopalians Must Choose Fellowship or Gay Support
Associated Press
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/212/story_21276_1.html


NEW YORK, Feb. 22 [2007] - Three years of emergency summits, nuanced apologies and behind-the-scenes negotiating failed. Anglican leaders this week gave the U.S. Episcopal Church an ultimatum: Halt your march toward full acceptance of gays, or lose your place in the global Anglican family.

Now, Episcopalians are asking themselves whether the cost of membership has become too high.

"We made our 'yes' to gays and lesbians," wrote the Rev. Ann Fontaine of the Diocese of Wyoming, in an examination of the Anglican demands. "Let it stand."

The global Anglican Communion, represented in the United States by the Episcopal Church, has spent years debating how its 77 million members should interpret Scripture on salvation, truth and sexuality.

But for theological conservatives, the time for talk ended in 2003 when the U.S. denomination consecrated its first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. To them, the confirmation was beyond the bounds of true Christianity.

Ever since, Episcopalians have had a tough lesson in what it means to be Anglican in the 21st century. The communion was once dominated by its North American and European provinces. But these days, its biggest and fastest-growing churches - by far - are in parts of the developing world where traditional Bible beliefs are not questioned.

As a result, Episcopalians have found themselves on the defensive.

It is no coincidence that Archbishop Peter Akinola, head of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, is leading the charge against consecrating gays. With its 17.5 million members, the Nigerian church is more than seven times bigger than the U.S. denomination.

Episcopalians who share these conservative views of Scripture are in the minority in their own church. But by putting their time, energy and resources behind overseas traditionalists, they have helped move the communion toward the kind of demands they made this week.

Anglican leaders ended their meeting Monday in Tanzania by giving the Episcopal Church until Sept. 30 to pledge unequivocally not to consecrate another gay bishop or approve an official prayer service for blessing same-sex couples. If that promise is not given, the Episcopal Church could face a much reduced role in the Anglican world.

Many Episcopalians say they are being asked to give up what they cherish most about their denomination: its emphasis on social justice in Scripture, which led them to accept gay relationships, and its democratic policy making that gives lay people and clergy a vote in major decisions.

They look at what they have already done to mend the rifts and consider it more than enough.

The church has apologized repeatedly for failing to more fully consult with Anglican leaders before confirming Robinson - although it has not apologized for consecrating him. Episcopal leaders have explained themselves before Anglican panels and in countless private meetings.

If the Anglican family is forcing a choice between rejecting gays or going it alone, the liberal view says, then it may be time to say goodbye.

"If how others view us becomes our consuming concern, our mission will suffer or die," said Bishop Paul Marshall of the Diocese of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, in a letter to his congregations Wednesday.

But the head of the Episcopal Church, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, returned from the Tanzania meeting saying the denomination should make the very concessions liberals abhor "for a season" until relationships with fellow Anglicans can be healed.

Jefferts Schori personally supports ordaining gays, and she has upset some with her willingness to agree to the Anglican leaders' demands. Yet, she is not alone in wanting to keep the U.S. affiliation with the communion.

Bishop Kirk Smith of the Diocese of Arizona told his parishioners this week that "my heart breaks" at the thought of stepping back from full inclusion of gays and lesbians.

"However, I believe that we are at a moment in our history when we must remain together," Smith said. "I am committed to a fully inclusive church, but I am also committed to remaining part of the larger Anglican Communion." It is a bond that goes back hundreds of years, with roots in the Church of England.

Anglican leaders said Monday that the Episcopalians' pledge would have to hold until "a new consensus emerges" over sexuality.

But that might never happen, considering the intense differences over sexuality.

Whatever the Episcopal House of Bishops decides over the next seven months, the church can easily survive without the communion. The 2.3 million-member U.S. denomination may be relatively small, but it is affluent - and well situated to continue its missions with other Christians overseas.

In fact, the Anglican Communion itself may suffer more from any broken ties. A significant chunk of its budget comes from the U.S. church.

I pray our Anglican Brothers be reunited with Canonical Orthodoxy!

Meanwhile, though, it seems questionable to assert that "it is not meant to be" that Anglicanism should be reconciled with the fullness of the Church. That is surely the Lord's intention for everyone.

Fr. Serge

John,

I would be quite interested to hear his response to your questions. Please post if you are able.

Jason

Statistics seem to support Fr. Mike. Roman Catholics who choose to withdraw from that judicatory very often join the Episcopal Church, and so do Roman Catholic clergy who prefer to withdraw from Roman Catholicism.

Anglicans, who have a well-earned reputation for good manners, do not as a rule make a ballyhoo over every convert they receive. A human being should not be waved around like a football trophy, and spiritual decisions are often agonizing and the details are best kept among God, one's spiritual advisors, and oneself.

Fr. Serge

We were talking with a former Episcopal priest the other day. I say former since he will come into the Roman Catholic Church on Pascha this year. He said that the priests are falling rapidly. That soon there will be no, or very few priests left in the Anglican or Episcopalian Church. They are all going Catholic or Orthodox, but not staying put.
Pani Rose

I have to agree with Fr. Mike's response to this statement. In Canada, there is no sign of this at all. The 2 Anglican seminaries in Toronto are attracting students. There are also other Anglican theological Colleges accross the country. No signs at all of mass conversions or of priests/ministers leaving and joining the ranks of the RC Church.
We have to be careful is making such generalized statements.

I have often heard Anglicans/Episcopalians lament that in the context of conversions Rome gets the best of their flock whilst they get the worst of hers.

. . . was a parish priest in the Episcopal Church for twenty-five years. He has published articles in the Anglican Theological Review, Sewanee Theological Review, Interpretation, Scottish Journal of Theology, Worship, Faith & Philosophy, Pro Ecclesia, and First Things. He has also edited two books: Speaking the Christian God and This is My Name Forever. He began Pontifications in March 2004 as a way to reflect on the meaning of the Church and to invite others to share in these reflections. In June 2005 he entered into full communion with the Catholic Church. On 3 December 2006 he was ordained a priest in the Catholic Church. He is currently serving as the lay Catholic chaplain at Kean University in Union, New Jersey.

Which reminds me of Fr. Alvin Kimel, blogosphere's famous "Pontificator" who:



His long and arduous journey was read by many on his "Pontifications," culminating in Fr. Kimel's choosing the Catholic Church:

http://catholica.pontifications.net/index.php?cat=12&paged=3

Another would be the former Anglican Bishop of London, now Monsignor Graham Leonard, who caused quite a stir when he converted to the Catholic Church in 1994. He freely accepted Rome's stance that he could not be ordained as a Catholic Bishop because he was, and still is, married. There are inklings that the Monsignor might be elevated to the episcopacy (or even to the Cardinalate) once he is widowed.

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2002/mar2002p8_938.html

Who's to say that his Grace's wife won't outlive her husband?

So, ideally it would be better, but the "to-and-from" flow looks good to me. As much as it hurts to hear of people born Catholic who, either of their own fault or of their malformation in the faith, leave the Church, they do less harm outside of its doors than they do from within.
Logos - Alexis

Sweet deals?? How can you use that kind of terminology?? It amazes me.

What do you think of those then who become Orthodox and were Catholic?

Brian said: Sweet deals?? How can you use that kind of terminology?? It amazes me.

What do you think of those then who become Orthodox and were Catholic?

I was speaking a bit hyperbolically perhaps, Brian, to emphasize my sadness over the fact that people choose to leave the Catholic Church for the Anglican Communion, but at the same time to express gratitude that it seems that many of those who are wont to do the most damage to the Church see fit to leave it for some Episcopal churches which are more than willing to entertain their fanciful wishes.

Now, that's not meant to be a blanket statement. Check out the Diocese of Linz in Austria. I'd imagine going from that to an Episcopal church would be like going from a Pentecostal church to high-church Lutheranism.

And as to your final question, I'd be more than happy to discuss that in a private message conversation, but not openly in this thread because I don't want to inflame passions, offend others, and beat a dead horse.

Logos - Alexis

John,

I agree with what you said, except that Anglo-Catholic worship is sometimes more traditional the Tridentine Catholic worship. Don't the Anglo-Catholics still use a Protestant/Reformation liturgy? Therefore it is necessarily by its own definition NOT as traditional as the Tridentine Mass. And if it's the Tridentine but simply in English, then it's still not as traditional since the Tridentine Mass has always been celebrated (with few exceptions) in Latin.

The Traditional Latin Mass is far, far older than Protestantism and goes back to the early days of Christianity in Rome.

And naturally since the entire Roman Rite has been liturgically reformed/(malformed?) since the close of Vatican II, you wouldn't see many a traditional thing done "even...in Rome during a Pontifical Mass anymore." Not surprising.

And as an aside, I'm not just talking about liturgics. I'm also talking about doctrine. Many Episcopalian converts leave their more dignified forms of liturgical worship to (painstakingly but joyfully) enter into Christ's Church at their local St. _____ Catholic Church, which often does have, as you've noted, extremely banal worship.

Logos - Alexis

John,

I agree with what you said, except that Anglo-Catholic worship is sometimes more traditional the Tridentine Catholic worship. Don't the Anglo-Catholics still use a Protestant/Reformation liturgy? Therefore it is necessarily by its own definition NOT as traditional as the Tridentine Mass. And if it's the Tridentine but simply in English, then it's still not as traditional since the Tridentine Mass has always been celebrated (with few exceptions) in Latin.

The Traditional Latin Mass is far, far older than Protestantism and goes back to the early days of Christianity in Rome.

And naturally since the entire Roman Rite has been liturgically reformed/(malformed?) since the close of Vatican II, you wouldn't see many a traditional thing done "even...in Rome during a Pontifical Mass anymore." Not surprising.

And as an aside, I'm not just talking about liturgics. I'm also talking about doctrine. Many Episcopalian converts leave their more dignified forms of liturgical worship to (painstakingly but joyfully) enter into Christ's Church at their local St. _____ Catholic Church, which often does have, as you've noted, extremely banal worship.

Logos - Alexis

This article spells certain doom for the Anglican communion. Let us pray for our brothers and sisters at this momentous time in their history.

After hundreds of years filled with faith and struggle, the beautiful dream of the Anglican Communion��

John,

I've been to St. Clement's website many times, most recently two days ago. Judging from the pictures it does seem "Tridentine," but nowhere on the website (that I can find) do they give a text of the worship service they use, or even a name to it.

And Orthodox Pyrohy, in fact, didn't deny that the Traditional Latin Mass has a history that goes back to the early days of Christianity in Rome. You just said that it doesn't, but it seems historical data disagrees with you. Anyway, I don't disagree that rites develop over time, and it seems that the Roman Rite underwent quite a change sometime between the third/fourth and sixth centuries.

Orthodox Pyrohy,

I did know that the first Christian liturgies in Rome were conducted in Greek and then later switched to Latin. No argument here on that! I'm not so ignorant of basic liturgical history to not be aware of that, or to suppose you were coerced into saying that by "the Greeks." LOL.

Logos - Alexis