www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy

I have to agree with Mark. The renewed dialog has as its topic, at base, the proper exercise of the Petrine Office. Unless Orthodoxy and the Latin Church can agree on how that primacy is exercised, nothing more than, possibly, good feelings can come from these dialogs. The Latin Church and the Orthodox Churches have all sorts of theological differences, some dogmatic, others merely theologoumenna. Mixed up in this are very differing ecclesiologies. In the end, these differences, well at least the dogmatic ones, can only be resolved by an ecumenical council. And I suspect that the Orthodox here will agree that a true ecumenical council cannot be held absent any of the Churches...or without the Pope or his representative presiding and participating. Thus agreement on the proper exercise of primacy is the sine qua non of moving forward.

Getting involved in the "validity" of the NO liturgy, at least to my way of thinking, is simply not an issue for this dialog as it is exclusively the province of the Latin Church, unless of course the Liturgy is deemed heretical in which case it would be a matter for that ecumenical council I mentioned. In the meantime, its simply none of our business telling the Latins how to run their liturgies and I must say, I cannot at all see how the NO liturgy impacts on the Latin/Orthodox dialog save in the sense that lex orandi, lex credendi is a true maxim (and even then I don;t think its any of our business).

Hi

I'm an Ex-Traditionalist and left because the way the Roman Catholic Church treats me and other Traditionalists. The Novus Ordo Religionist don't like and hate Tridentine Latin Mass Group.

One day I walk in the Catholic Church in Boston to speak to Fr. Murphy. He was the priest that serve for the Tridentine Latin Mass. Fr. Murphy introduce me to a Novus Ordo Nun as a member of the Latin Mass group at Holy Trinity German Catholic.

The Nun responce was OH! ONE OF THEM. That made me very hot under the collar. I walk right out and shortly left the Church and decided I didn't belong in the Catholic Church.

So I decided to convert to the Eastern Orthodox Church were I was weclomed. The Orthodox Church is the "One True Church"

I'm proud to be Eastern Orthodox Christian and would never leave it. Orthodoxy is the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

I have said my peace and let chip where they may.

Frank

Hi

I feel that the Latin Traditionalists should have their own Church and have not to beg for their rights as Christians. They want to have the Tridentine Mass and have Priest and Nuns that are part of there lifes.

The Novus Ordo Mass of Pope Paul VI was a mistake on the RC side. That is for them to sort out for themselves.

I'm an Ex-Traditionalists and left because of the hate shown to be by Novus Ordo Religionist. Novus Ordo Religionist can not stand them at all.

Traditionalists Catholics can be very stubborn and are not ones to want to talk to the Orthodox Church and they also reject ecumenical dialog.

It is easy to bleed blood from a rock then to move a Traditionalists on a belief they hold.

Orthodox Christainity turn out to be were I truly belonged. Being Orthodox Christain now I would be very careful in our talks with the RC Church. If they don't have respect for Traditionalists what about there talks with Orthodox Christians.

Just my view of this dialog with Traditionalists

Have a great day.

Frank

Thought I might add something here but sooner or later a dog knows when to stop chasing his tail.

Ah, can't resist rcguest, although I do see this as a useless tail chasing exercise!

My entire experience with Roman Catholicism is post-Vatican II. I have attended Tridentine services (they have "legit" ones offered by the archdiocese in DC), because I personally feel more connected to the whole continuity of the faith aspect of worship. Since my mom's family had mostly Orthodox folks, I also grew up with Eastern services and traditions, as well. I gravitated that way myself, mostly because of the ritual. So normally, I attend the Divine Liturgy and only occasionally the Roman Mass. However, I am decidedly a Catholic and belong to a Byzantine parish. That is where I feel spiritually at home as an adult.

I know Roman Catholics of several backgrounds of my age and younger, most of these friends do prefer the "newer" form of service. It surprises me, because that is not my worship preference, but I respect that they have found their home there. Many of my friends who have "tried" Eastern services, Tridentine services, etc. and have gone back to the modern Catholic form of worship because that is where they are at home. These are devout people. They just don't want to worship the same method or according to the same form you or I do. And like it or not, the Roman Catholic Church says that that "newer" form of Mass is legitimate, so they are doing nothing wrong in attending.

In fact, my husband occasionally attends Liturgy with me, but he prefers to attend the modern Mass, in English, at his own parish, so he usually does. I respect that. He doesn't know a word of Latin and he doesn't care to. But he's a good Catholic in every regard. So they must be doing something right over there, even if they are doing it in English.

I think it is fine if people worship in slightly different forms. I really don't see it as a huge human tragedy that there are so many different types of worship out there. No matter how you slice it, there is still only one profound Truth. Really, there were always many "churches" falling under the universal Church. Faith is practiced in community and communities do vary.

However, I do believe that Catholics who want to follow older rituals should be accommodated better than they are by the Roman Catholic Church. There's a lost opportunity there that has turned rather tragic. I do not believe that groups like SSPX are correct (because they are disobedient), but I do believe the traditional Latin Mass should be made more available to those who want it. It is part of who Roman Catholics "are."

In DC, there is one old church in Chinatown that offers the Tridentine Latin Mass on occasion (used to be broadcast on EWTN). To my knowledge, it is the only one in the archdiocese that was doing it on a schedule with the Cardinal's blessing. (I haven't checked in awhile, though.) Given the high turnout - mostly a mixture of elderly Chinese people and elderly African American homeless men who prayed like angels in Latin. However, I must admit that I was the youngest person there. (That was probably one of the first times I ever saw a woman with a mantilla in a Roman Catholic parish.)

Frank, I remember what a theology professor I had once said as a flippant joke but that stuck with me: "Jesus Christ went out to preach the Kingdom... and He ended up with a bunch of churches." I think there is some wisdom in that passing fancy. The apostles went off and founded Christian communities that became churches. And each and every one of the apostolic churches reaches in its own way back toward the goal of Church with a capital "C" and towards Kingdom with a capital "K" in their own slightly different ways, ways that are very influenced by varying human culture and by local traditions.

I can fully believe that my Orthodox family and my Catholic family are both worshipping correctly. (One of the beauties of being raised with complementary traditions being properly respected in your home.)

Amen, Annie!

I think the typical way the new order for the Roman Rite is celebrated, and the liberties taken with it, can pose a big problem to re-union with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. On the "ground level" it's probably now the biggest practical problem. I can't see very many E.O.'s not being gravely scandalized.

As for the liturgical texts themselves, personally I think they're a mixed bag. The whole thing IMHO was very ill-advised, and I think plenty of people in the hierarchy in hindsight recognize this. It didn't help that there were already some deep-seated problem within the larger Church however, and this just simply gave it an opportunity to spill out into the open.

However, I do know for a fact that the "New Mass" can be celebrated in a way not in "spiritual schism" from the historical Latin Tradition, and more so, from the greater Catholic Tradition as a whole. The Bishop can have the Priests "facing east" when at the Altar, he doesn't need to allow the use of horrible liturgical music at the expense of Gregorian Chant (or other liturgical music of good quality.) If it can be said a lack of seriousness and good taste are problems throughout much of western culture right now, the same can be said of the Apostolic Church native to that culture. By the will of God, it is begining to pass (I hope.) We shall see.

In the meantime, I'm much happier to generally attend services at a Tridentine-Rite chapel, or in a Church of the Eastern tradition. It's all very much a scandal for me too! The Vatican has become increasingly willing to admit that the "old Mass" was never in fact banned or abrogated, but sadly it's status remains a very delicate topic (especially with aging "liberal" bishops.) More of them (frankly) will probably have to die off before hard measures are going to be taken to give more normality to the Latin Churches.

Dear Annie,

Just wanted you to know that this is an AWESOME post--it is fair and balanced!!!

In Christ,
Alice

A very good post indeed, thank you.

MotherBear

Annie, I am with you in your thoughts. Thanks for your sharing and hopefully the Roman Catholic Church can provide more support to people who would like to worship in the old ritual. I've been to a Latin mass once and I think it's awesome. The liturgy is in Latin but the readings and harmony are given in English. It's more solemn, reference which helps me to focus on God more in the worship.