www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Men, man, mankind, hu-man, wo-man ???

The word man seems to have lost its pc status in the byzcath church. but i wonder. English is like Hebrew. Both languages have difficulty finding a word to represent both sexes. No sooner does the word 'man' get the boot another word fills its place. My byzcath family and friends who were discussing the changes in their worship service argued about the debunking of the word 'man'.. Yet i was humored on how the word 'guys' has become its replacement in American English. Women were refering to each other as 'guys' has anyone noticed? Why not the use of the word 'girls'?? But one woman told me that some women don't like to be called girls because it is a male dominating word - like a male boss refering to his female employees as girls. it sounds sexist. But young girls and older women now say 'guys' to each other.

My niece was upset that the words to the beatitudes were changed from sons of God to children of God. I find it appaling thta the words of the Bible would be twisted. Even though the Catholic bible (New American Bible) has children of God, nowhere in the ancient bibles does that phrase appear in the New Testament. Sons of God has a deep meaning like Son of God. sons of God means saints. Children of God does not. My niece made the point that she wants to become a saint. now I know why she doens't like the new words. She feels jipped. This sounds like one of those traditions of men. She was thinkin gof inviting her Episcopal friends but is now afraid they will think her church is becoming pc like theres.

Eddie

Perhaps "Sons of God" has more to do with inheritance than sainthood. It was the sons who inherited in ancient times; daughters were married off as fast as possible, even if they had to be heavily veiled to accomplish it!

It's true that sometimes I refer to my female friends as "you guys." But then I refer to our nuns as "you ladies" -- much more genteel. Referring to my friends as "girls" would be almost like calling a person with dark skin "boy." It's demeaning for the reasons you stated. However, since you guys (men) have "boys night out," we women can have our "girls night out," too! In some ways, we are truly confused on the topic of gender.

I tend to say ladies when referring to a group of women, and guys when referring to a group of men. Ladies sounds polite while gentlemen sounds stuffy if not said under the right circumstances. My grandfather says you'uns. My other grandfather says y'all while my grandmother says you all. Somewhere along the line several in the family also picked up youse.

I can hear it now:

Bow y'all's heads to the Lord.
Peace be with you'uns.
Pray to the Lord youse catechumens.

In polite speech, men are gentlemen (unless they demonstrate the contrary) whenever women are ladies (unless they demonstrate the contrary). One would hardly begin a formal address with: "Ladies and Men!".

A lady, incidentally, is a woman in whose presence a man becomes a gentleman.

Now what, I wonder, is the PC version of "No-Man's-Land".

Fr. Serge

Eddie,

Your niece's instincts are absolutely correct. Inclusivized English impoverishes the Christian faith. Consider the connotations of the words child and son in these two sentences. "He is truly a child." vs "He is truly a son."

We all are called to become sons like the only-begotten Son - and this certainly includes your niece.

Sons inherit, sons rule in the name of their father, sons preserve his legacy for future generations. This can of course be true of daughters in an incidental way depending on the culture and family circumstances. But the word daughter does not carry these connotations in such a universal way as does son.

Christ taught us that we (Adam, Eve and all men) are all sons in the sense of receiving the promised inheritance. To change the term from "sons" to "children" is to change the whole theology of the nature of our salvific inheritance.

Actually, the phrase "children of God" occurs several times in the New Testament. I searched the online Revised Standard Version for the phrase "children of God." I also searched for the phrase "sons of God." The phrase "children of God" appears in John 1:12, John 11:52, Romans 9:8, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1, 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 5:2. The phrase "sons of God" appears in Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:35, Romans 8:14, and Galatians 3:26. Then I went to the Greek for each of these verses. For those verses that are translated "children," the Greek is "tekna," the plural of "teknon," which means "child." For those verses that are translated "sons," the Greek is "huiou," the plural form of "huios," which means "son." One of the verses that is translated "sons of God" is Matthew 5:9, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." For this verse, which is from the Beatitudes, the Greek is from "huios," so I think the NAB gets it wrong in translating it as "children of God."
Ryan

I do not prefer or like the NAB but it should be noted that the RNAB (currently used for the RC lectionary) reads children in MT 5:9, the old original NAB reads sons...

james

The Douai-Rheims NT, the King James and Msgr. Knox's translation also have "children of God" in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:9).

Found this reference in Haydocks 1859 commentary...


Ver. 9. To be peaceful ourselves and with others, and to bring such as are at variance together, will entitle us to be children of God. Thus we shall be raised to a participation in the honour of the only begotten Son of God, who descended from heaven to bring peace to man, and to reconcile him with his offended Creator. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xv.)

james

I think determing the correct translation with another translation is defeating. In all cases where 'sons of God' was used in the ancient bible documents, the NAB used 'children of God'. Children of God is used, but something gets lost wehen it is used instead of 'sons of God' by the eveangelists. you byzcaths got me looking closer at the ancient bible documents. Sons of God has its own meaning. You'ns are changing scripture to satisfy traditions of men. I looked up your catechism and found sons of God and children of God used. Even your Roman catechism makes a distinction between the two. By making all words 'children' that distinction gets lost. Bible teaching gets watered down. You'all are going the way of my Episcopal friends. Weren't your catholic shepherds warned about doing this by Rome?

Eddie

Eddie:
You wrote, "You'all are going the way of my Episcopal friends." As a former Episcopalian I feel very confident in saying "I don't think so."

Ryan

Ed,

There is not a catechism currently promulgated for the Byzantines churches, though the Ukrainians (IIRC) are about to publish one.


Ryan,

Is this a step up or a step down for your parish? How is it being taken there?

Dear Wondering:
I have not heard any parishioners complaining about the changes in the liturgy. However, we have not begun to use it, though our priest has already begun saying, "for he loves us all," rather "lover of mankind." I've heard no complaints about this either, but that does not necessarily mean that there aren't people who are unhappy. It's really hard for me to say, since I don't know all the other parishioner.
Ryan

Actually, "sons of God" IS used in the new service books - for example, in the Sunday prokeimenon in Tone 7.