www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Orthodoxy, Athos & ecumenism

May I make a suggestion to all here? I don't want to lock this topic, because I know that many feel that doing this too often is stifling, (though I will do it if these misunderstandings continue)-- so how about we all divert our post writing right now to praying for others on the Prayer Forum? Praying for others is something we are all called to do, especially at Lent, as a charitable act.

I guarantee that it will make you feel better that you are actually helping others in offering your sympathy, compassion, love and prayers to God on another's behalf. Trust me, the prayers of the good people who do give of themselves on that forum are MOST helpful and efficacious. Glory to God!

I've noticed threads being closed lately when the views of the Orthodox Churches, or should I say monasteries, regarding ecumenism and relations with the Catholic Church come into question.

Almost twenty tears ago I went through a period of discernment between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

I corresponded cordially for some time with a couple of monks at an Orthodox monastery here in the U.S. who told me their monastery carries on the rule, beliefs and faith of the monasteries of Mount Athos. The monk's final correspondence with me came in the form of a rather large packet of literature and information citing the errors of Catholicism and ecumenism in general. They told me in no uncertain terms I must disavow the Catholic Church in order to embrace Orthodoxy. Needless to say I was unwilling to deny the Catholic Church in order to be "O"rthodox and I remain a Catholic today.

I post this because I see threads which sometimes seem to me to be critical of the Catholic Church and its positions, beliefs and/or praxis go on unabated but a topic such as this regarding Orthodoxy gets closed rather quickly.

I realize we are now well into Lent/Great Fast and I do not wish to disrupt but fair is fair.

So the Catholic Church teaches that we hold everything in common with the Eastern Orthodox, or *almost* everything in common? What falls under that "almost"? Doesn't that count for something? Why are we just quoting one Pope who, it seems, never officially spoke ex cathedra on this issue and never taught anything binding to the faith and morals of a Catholic to believe in this regard?

Why, anyone could drag out some awful quotations from many Popes concerning what they had to say about the Eastern Orthodox.

JPII isn't even the most recent Pope; why are his personal views pushed before all else?

I haven't heard Benedict espouse those views.

1. We have recalled with thankfulness the meetings of our venerable predecessors, blessed by the Lord, who showed the world the urgent need for unity and traced sure paths for attaining it, through dialogue, prayer and the daily life of the Church. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I went as pilgrims to Jerusalem, to the very place where Jesus Christ died and rose again for the salvation of the world, and they also met again, here in the Phanar and in Rome. They left us a common declaration which retains all its value; it emphasizes that true dialogue in charity must sustain and inspire all relations between individuals and between Churches, that it �must be rooted in a total fidelity to the one Lord Jesus Christ and in mutual respect for their own traditions� (Tomos Agapis, 195). Nor have we forgotten the reciprocal visits of His Holiness Pope John Paul II and His Holiness Dimitrios I. It was during the visit of Pope John Paul II, his first ecumenical visit, that the creation of the Mixed Commission for theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church was announced. This has brought together our Churches in the declared aim of re-establishing full communion.

As far as relations between the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople are concerned, we cannot fail to recall the solemn ecclesial act effacing the memory of the ancient anathemas which for centuries had a negative effect on our Churches. We have not yet drawn from this act all the positive consequences which can flow from it in our progress towards full unity, to which the mixed Commission is called to make an important contribution. We exhort our faithful to take an active part in this process, through prayer and through significant gestures.

And are you saying the Orthodox aren't heretical, but are schismatic? Or neither? Or what? Where does this come from and where does the tradition of the Church back this up, or does this come from personal opinions of JPII, which should certainly be respected but equally as certainly should not be viewed as doctrine, especially when contradicting tradition. That seems to be papalotry, ironically.

Unitatis Redintegration, Vatican II

I. The Special Consideration of the Eastern Churches

14. For many centuries the Church of the East and that of the West each followed their separate ways though linked in a brotherly union of faith and sacramental life; the Roman See by common consent acted as guide when disagreements arose between them over matters of faith or discipline. Among other matters of great importance, it is a pleasure for this Council to remind everyone that there flourish in the East many particular or local Churches, among which the Patriarchal Churches hold first place, and of these not a few pride themselves in tracing their origins back to the apostles themselves. Hence a matter of primary concern and care among the Easterns, in their local churches, has been, and still is, to preserve the family ties of common faith and charity which ought to exist between sister Churches.

Similarly it must not be forgotten that from the beginning the Churches of the East have had a treasury from which the Western Church has drawn extensively-in liturgical practice, spiritual tradition, and law. Nor must we undervalue the fact that it was the ecumenical councils held in the East that defined the basic dogmas of the Christian faith, on the Trinity, on the Word of God Who took flesh of the Virgin Mary. To preserve this faith these Churches have suffered and still suffer much.

However, the heritage handed down by the apostles was received with differences of form and manner, so that from the earliest times of the Church it was explained variously in different places, owing to diversities of genius and conditions of life. All this, quite apart from external causes, prepared the way for decisions arising also from a lack of charity and mutual understanding.

For this reason the Holy Council urges all, but especially those who intend to devote themselves to the restoration of full communion hoped for between the Churches of the East and the Catholic Church, to give due consideration to this special feature of the origin and growth of the Eastern Churches, and to the character of the relations which obtained between them and the Roman See before separation. They must take full account of all these factors and, where this is done, it will greatly contribute to the dialogue that is looked for.

15. Everyone also knows with what great love the Christians of the East celebrate the sacred liturgy, especially the eucharistic celebration, source of the Church's life and pledge of future glory, in which the faithful, united with their bishop, have access to God the Father through the Son, the Word made flesh, Who suffered and has been glorified, and so, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, they enter into communion with the most holy Trinity, being made "sharers of the divine nature".(35) Hence, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in each of these churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature(36) and through concelebration, their communion with one another is made manifest.

In this liturgical worship, the Christians of the East pay high tribute, in beautiful hymns of praise, to Mary ever Virgin, whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus solemnly proclaimed to be the holy Mother of God, so that Christ might be acknowledged as being truly Son of God and Son of Man, according to the Scriptures. Many also are the saints whose praise they sing, among them the Fathers of the universal Church.

These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged.

Moreover, in the East are found the riches of those spiritual traditions which are given expression especially in monastic life. There from the glorious times of the holy Fathers, monastic spirituality flourished which, then later flowed over into the Western world, and there provided the source from which Latin monastic life took its rise and has drawn fresh vigor ever since. Catholics therefore are earnestly recommended to avail themselves of the spiritual riches of the Eastern Fathers which lift up the whole man to the contemplation of the divine.

The very rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern Churches should be known, venerated, preserved and cherished by all. They must recognize that this is of supreme importance for the faithful preservation of the fullness of Christian tradition, and for bringing about reconciliation between Eastern and Western Christians.

16. Already from the earliest times the Eastern Churches followed their own forms of ecclesiastical law and custom, which were sanctioned by the approval of the Fathers of the Church, of synods, and even of ecumenical councils. Far from being an obstacle to the Church's unity, a certain diversity of customs and observances only adds to her splendor, and is of great help in carrying out her mission, as has already been stated. To remove, then, all shadow of doubt, this holy Council solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, while remembering the necessary unity of the whole Church, have the power to govern themselves according to the disciplines proper to them, since these are better suited to the character of their faithful, and more for the good of their souls. The perfect observance of this traditional principle not always indeed carried out in practice, is one of the essential prerequisites for any restoration of unity.

17. What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God's truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth.

All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West.

18. After taking all these factors into consideration, this Sacred Council solemnly repeats the declaration of previous Councils and Roman Pontiffs, that for the restoration or the maintenance of unity and communion it is necessary "to impose no burden beyond what is essential".(37) It is the Council's urgent desire that, in the various organizations and living activities of the Church, every effort should be made toward the gradual realization of this unity, especially by prayer, and by fraternal dialogue on points of doctrine and the more pressing pastoral problems of our time. Similarly, the Council commends to the shepherds and faithful of the Catholic Church to develop closer relations with those who are no longer living in the East but are far from home, so that friendly collaboration with them may increase, in the spirit of love, to the exclusion of all feeling of rivalry or strife. If this cause is wholeheartedly promoted, the Council hopes that the barrier dividing the Eastern Church and Western Church will be removed, and that at last there may be but the one dwelling, firmly established on Christ Jesus, the cornerstone, who will make both one.(38)

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Oh, and by the way I am NOT trying to create differences that don't exist between Catholics and Orthodox, but as many (mostly Orthodox?) have said here recently, we cannot pretend differences don't exist. It is better to acknowledge them and go from there together in Christian charity and love. This approach seems, perhaps, to be at odds with what John Paul II thought best.

The artist formerly known as Logos Teen
I shall repeat again. You can not be orthodox and catholic at the same time. You must fully accept the teachings of your church, if you do not then you have seperated yourself from your church. This goes for Catholics and Orthodox. Therefore you can't be half the one and the other half of the other.
While it is a commonly held belief that Catholics are the same as Orthodox save for the papal issue, this is simply and factually not true. From organizational structure downwards there are many many key differences. Believe it or not, Catholics aren't "almost Orthodox" and Orthodox aren't "almost Catholic." We have muc in common indeed, but there are many key issues that seperate us.

The artist formerly known as Logos Teen