www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Orthodoxy, Athos & ecumenism

Can one be Orthodox and Catholic simultaneously? If not, we are all in bad trouble. Orthodox Christians profess their adherence to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; Catholic Christians profess their Faith in Orthodox Christianity.

As Metropolitan Elias (Zoghby) famously pointed out less than ten years ago, we believe every positive teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy, without reservation.

Certainly there are disagreements; who denies it? There is a need to resolve some of them; others can be left for theological amusement for as long as the theologians enjoy them.

A litmus test might well be one's acceptance or rejection of the Tome of Leo at the Council of Chalcedon. Does one accept this, and does one venerate Saint Leo among the Saints?

Fr. Serge

John, I understand and completely agree that you are correct.
I should have been more clear and incorporated into my post what you did!

I am not Orthodox for 2 good reasons.

1st Orthodoxy�s view on divorce (which I know in my heart is wrong).
2nd Orthodoxy�s view on contraception (which is not defined and is unclear).

I believe that Christs Church would allow for the Truth to be taught always. In other words, a person will be able to determine what is right and wrong in the eyes of God.

In the Catholic Church it is very clear what is right and wrong. In my humble opinion Humanae Vitae is a Papal infalliable teaching.

With this said, I do not hold the position that the fullness of the faith can be found in Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy the Patriarch is the highest authority. Different Patriarchs disagree on the two topics I posted.

When I hear Orthodox on this forum tell us Catholics we are not Orthodox because lay people distribute communion, the Latin Mass is a mess, we have altar girls, etc� I say all of that is true and we are wrong for that, but those are (t)radtions with a small t. Christ never said His Church would be absolutely faithful. That is impossible because we are ALL sinners. What Christ promised is that His Church would always teach the truth.

In the Catholic Church we 100% the truth. I don�t believe that to be the case in Orthodoxy. To be honest, I feel sorry for my Orthodox brothers and sisters and wish they would return to the fullness of the faith that can only be found with Peter.

That is why I am a Byzantine Catholic even though I don't like the new Liturgy, hate the fact laity are giving communion, etc... I am a Byzantine Catholic because I know I have the fullness of the faith that can only come from Peter. I wish my Orthodox brothers and sister would hear Peter speak with regards to Humanae Vitae. For it is not Peter who speaks but Christ himself.

Yours in the Risen Christ!

Here we go again, and again during Lent.


That's fine.


I disagree.


I disagree.

So I disagree that if those are your reasons, that they are good ones.


I'm sure one could argue several points from a historic and current perspective that this isn't always the case.


Disagree again.


I find that simply patronizing, but so be it.

I'm tired of coming to this site and feeling like as an Orthodox Christian I have to constantly be on the defensive. Especially when the same things are brought up over and over.

AMM,

You can't take my comments out of context. It is true that the Patriarchs disagree on contraception. It is true that Orthodoxy has not completely defined its view on contraception.

With those points and those points alone I feel Orthodoxy is wrong.

I believe we have real differences (see above), but that doesn't mean we can't work them out.

To be honest, I am not sure how to articulate what I want to say. I just don�t want it taken by any poster as an offensive post. I am not too good at expressing my thoughts in words.

One more thing AMM, I hope that even though we disagree we can remain friends in Christ.

Yours in the Risen Christ!

I'm not taking your statements out of context, I am addressing them directly.

I disagree with you, and this has been argued over and over. Why you bring it up now is beyond me.

I want to clarify my original post again. I don't believe the fullness of the faith can be found in Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy has not defined its position on contraception like the Catholic Church has with Humanae Vitae.

That combined with the fact that I believe Divorce is wrong (under almost all situations). That is not the view of Orthodoxy.

So, with those two points alone I think Orthodoxy does not contain the fullness of the faith.

ROFL

Orthodox view on marrige is wrong?

So what you are saying it is OK to ANULL MARRIGES? Make it like it never happend. Nice and clean right? High MORALITY THERE!

STOP ATTACKING OUR CHURCH

THANK YOU

To clarify further.

I DISAGREE with both points.

I also believe my church possesses the fullness of faith. If yours does or not is known to God alone and is not for me to judge.

I have absolutely no idea why you feel the need to bring this up again at all, much less during Lent.

I am sorry I haven't read those posts.

I am bring this up now because of some of the original comments by Slavipodvizhnik as an attack on my faith.

Also, I don't agree with our Administrator in that the only thing that is lacking is communion itself. I think we have real differences (see my 2 points).

As a product of divorced parents and the blessing my wife and I have experience with NFP I know in my heart what the Catholic Church teaches is true. I feel as a Christian it is my duty to share my joy with others. If there are Orthodox who are reading this who are practicing contraception I feel like I should share the graces my wife and I have experienced giving up contraception.

Does this make any sense?

U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E.

Ray, examine your own church and fix your own problems before you come after us or presume to know what Orthodox people do or do not do in their most private of lives.

Ray,

I know that I said earlier that I wasn't posting in this thread again, but your post requires a response. Properly speaking, if you want to bring up these issues, then we should discuss it in a seperate thread. These are issues that happen to interest me very much. I have actually done a rather thorough study of the history of Catholic and Orthodox teaching on sexual matters, including contraception. I have not done a thorough study on the issue of marriage and divorce, however, I personally believe (based on what I read in Scripture and based on what I read in Roman Catholic teaching) that the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on the indisolubility of marriage is incoherent. If you want to open up a thread on either divorce or contraception or open a thread on both, I will be able to share with you my two cents on these issues. Or, if you wish, we can discuss these issues privately.

Joe

Okay everyone, let's calm down. Let's not attack each other and insult each other while we are both in the Lenten season together!

As for the matter of contraception and divorce, as a life long Orthodox, I think, or atleast I hope, that I can clarify it for our Catholic brethren...

The Roman Catholic approach to matters of morality is to approach these matters in very legalistic terms. This is the Western mindset.

The Orthodox Church approaches matters of morality such as the above, with the concept of 'ekonomia' or 'dispensation'. It allows a spiritual father to take a look at the whole person, and if the spiritual father deems that the person cannot have more children, or that the person cannot stay in the marriage, the Church, in its great compassion for its children, will *tolerate* allowing these. The Orthodox Church does not rejoice in the allowance of either divorce or contraception, but in specific situations it will allow them.

Infact, as far as divorce is concerned, a couple must face a difficult ecclesiastical court of clergy which must first deem the divorce allowable on certain moral and ethical grounds before granting it.

Because the Orthodox Church does not employ legalistic terms, it does not have to explain away allowing divorce by using the word 'annulment', and it does not have to explain away allowing for family planning by saying that the NFP method is acceptable.

I am not insulting the Roman Catholic Church. I am simply trying to explain how the great cultural divide of East and West has shaped our approaches to various issues in a different way, but in a way, that I think can ultimately be understood by both, if the West would become a bit less rigid with her children in these very difficult times for families. If I am not mistaken, I understand that many Roman Catholic priests have taken this Eastern concept of 'ekonomia' upon themselves with their spiritual children on some of these matters, despite official teaching. If this is true, I think that this is something that the Roman Catholic Church will have to ultimately come to terms with and deal with. I think that spiritual dispensation is a good way to do that.

I don't expect Catholics to agree with my opinions. I just wanted to offer them in a dispassionate manner, on behalf of the Orthodox faith.

With this explanation, (and since this notorious thread has caused countless hurt feelings and passions to go astray since yesterday), I will offer the Prayer of St. Ephraim, and close it.

�O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.� - Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

A good deal of what has been posted here since my last post is either off the mark theologically or totally irrelevant.

Ray seems to think that I am the one saying that the only thing lacking is communion itself. But that is not something I can be credited with. It is something that Pope John Paul II has said. He is important and has something to say that we need to listen to. One needs to understand that when the Catholic Church states that �With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound �that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist�� it is not in anyway stating that the remaining differences are unimportant and can be ignored. What the Church is stating is that even with the current differences the level of our communion is profound. This is not a statement that the differences are small. It is not a statement that the differences can be ignored. It is a statement that Jesus Christ is so awesome that our common faith is far greater and far more powerful than the differences. It is an acknowledgement of the reality of the differences and of the power of God to heal the division.

Both Ray S and Borislav�s posts are unacceptable. It is OK to state that the stated belief of another Church is incorrect (if one justifies this with the appropriate quotes from official sources). It is never OK to judge individuals or to consider an expressed disagreement to be an attack.

-

I invite everyone to read my earlier posts.

Learn and understand how both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches each speak theology.

Express differences with charity.

Do not compare the best of your Church with the worst of another�s Church.

Since we have had uncharitable behavior on both sides I am going to leave this thread closed.