www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Basis For The Catholic Understanding Of Papal Primacy

Mary,

I have to confess that this is precisely what bothers me so much about the rationalistic scholastic theology of the Western Church. The CCC says that the pope's power is "full," "supreme," "unhindered." Now, do words mean what they mean or does every term require one to have a Doctor of Sacred Theology from a Pontifical theological program to know what the words mean? If you take these adjectives together (full, supreme, unhindered) then how can that mean anything other than that the Pope has complete and unquestioned power to impose any discipline he desires and to define faith and morals without the consensus of the Church and without the approval of his fellow patriarchs and bishops?

Joe

Dear Joe,

Here is the pertinent segment of dogmatic act itself. I don't think I will say to much tonight since it is late. But I did want to post the text and to point out that "supreme" is used with regard to the Petrine apostolic position of first among equals.

In that phrase, "first" means "first". It does in fact mean that in some manner "first" is more equal. The first of firsts would be the supreme first. That is all it means. It is a recognition of the petrine ministry.

We can talk more tomorrow.

Oh...with regard to "rationalistic scholastic theology" I think that is a bit hyperbolic. In the fist place the Church is not the eqivalent of those who claim to teach in her name. So Church teaching is not Scholastic. Scholastic teaching is scholastic. There is a difference, and a distinction.

And in the second place, there's nothing irrational about the Cappadocian fathers for example. Nor were those who formulated the teaching concerning the Incarnation or the Trinity irrational men. So there is no particular fault in being reasoned or rational.

I understand the tempation to fall back on familiar descriptors but in this case you've hyperextended a tad beyond that which is sensible or accurate. Not a bad thing, just confusing sometimes.

Till tomorrow, in Christ's peace.

Mary

++++++++++++++++

# we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

* when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
o that is, when,
1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
* he possesses,
o by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
* that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
* Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

Totally and completely unacceptable. Wanna try again?

Alexandr

Here are some canons from the CCEO

Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.

Canon 44

1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by means of legitimate election accepted by him together with episcopal consecration; therefore, one who is already a bishop obtains this same power from the moment he accepts his election to the pontificate, but if the one elected lacks the episcopal character, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

2. If it should happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office (munus), it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone.

Canon 45

1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of exercising this function.

3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 46

1. In exercising his office (munus) the Roman Pontiff is assisted by the bishops who aid him in various ways and among these is the synod of bishops; moreover the cardinals, the Roman curia, pontifical legates and other persons and various institutes assist him according to the needs of the times; all these persons and institutes carry out the task committed to them in his name and by his authority for the good of all the Churches, according to the norm of law established by the Roman Pontiff himself.

2. The participation of patriarchs and other hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris in the synod of bishops is regulated by special norms established by the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 51

1. It is for the Roman Pontiff alone to convoke an ecumenical council, to preside over it personally or through others, to transfer, suspend or dissolve it, and to confirm its decrees.

2. It is for the same Roman Pontiff to determine matters to be treated in a council and to establish the order to be followed in the same council; to the questions proposed by the Roman Pontiff the fathers of a council can add other questions, to be approved by the same Roman Pontiff.

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of Supremacy

the quality or state of being supreme; also : supreme authority or power

Call it what you want but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

I don't need to try again with anything more than what is there and its proper meaning and exercise.

The bilateral commission will manage to discuss things as they are.

As I noted earlier, two of the most important considerations in the bilateral discussions have already been raised by the Orthodox, and they are with direct reference to Orthodoxy itself.

The first is the question, and its extension, of whether or not there was real governing power and authority in each of the five members of the pentarchy, and, Is there real primatial power? And then the corollary that asks is the first truly the first in real power and authority?

The second question raised is whether or not the Orthdoox Church governs today as she did in the first thousand years, and an answer came back "no" and it has been suggested that question be a part of the Orthodox self-examination to try to describe in detail how it is different in the second thousand years.

The answers to those questions then open the door to discussing the how and why and when of things, and will provide some real grounds for comparison.

You fellows aren't working quite that systematically in your thinking and reacting, and you don't really have the authority to decide in any event, any more than I do.

The best we can do is look at what is happening and open our hearts to one another in love and hope.

Christ's peace to you in this fast.

Mary

Here is the text of the Pope's comments from Zenit.org. Interestingly, in light of some of the above posts, Pope Benedict XVI clearly attributes the letter to the Corinthians to Pope St. Clement, and not to a plurality of persons, qouting Eusebius the famous early church historian:

http://zenit.org/english/

On St. Clement of Rome

"The Church Has a Sacramental, Not Political Structure"

VATICAN CITY, MARCH 7, 2007 (ZENIT.org).- Here is a translation of Benedict XVI's address at today's general audience. The Pope is beginning a new cycle of catecheses on the Apostolic Fathers, starting with St. Clement of Rome.

* * *

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

During the past few months we have meditated upon the figures of each individual apostle and the first witnesses of the Christian faith, those mentioned in the New Testament writings. Now, we will turn our attention to the Apostolic Fathers, that is, to the first and second generation of the Church after the apostles. This way we can see how the Church's path started in history.

St. Clement, Bishop of Rome during the last years of the first century, is the third successor of Peter, after Linus and Anacletus. The most important testimonial of his life is that written by St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon until 202. He asserts that Clement "had seen the apostles � had met with them," and "still had their preaching in his ears, and their tradition before his eyes" (Adv. Haer. 3,3,3). Later testimonials, between the fourth and sixth centuries, give Clement the title of martyr.

This Bishop of Rome's authority and prestige were such that various writings were attributed to him, but the only certain one is the Letter to the Corinthians.

Eusebius of Caesarea, the great "archivist" of Christian origins, presents it with these words: "One letter by Clement has been sent down to us recognized as authentic, great and admirable. It was written by him on behalf of the Church of Rome to the Church of Corinth. � We know that for a long time, and still today, this letter is read publicly during the reunions of the faithful" (Hist. Eccl. 3,16).

An almost canonical characteristic was attributed to this letter. At the beginning of the text, written in Greek, Clement is sorry if "the multiple and calamitous events" (1,1), made for a tardy intervention. These "events" can be identified with the persecution of Domitian; therefore, the date this letter was written goes back to a time directly after the death of the emperor and toward the end of the persecution, that is to say just after 96.

Clement's intervention -- we are still in the first century -- was called upon because of the serious problems the Church of Corinth was undergoing; the priests of the community, in fact, had been deposed by some young upstarts. The painful event is remembered, once again by St. Irenaeus who writes, "Under Clement, having given rise to a rather serious contrast between the Corinthian brothers, the Church of Rome sent the Corinthians a very important letter to reconcile them in peace to renew their faith and to announce the tradition, a tradition they had so newly received from the apostles" (Adv. Haer. 3,3,3).

Therefore, we could say that this letter is a first exercise of a Primate of Rome after the death of St. Peter. Clement's letter touches upon topics dear to St. Paul who had written two great letters to the Corinthians, in particular the theological dialectic, always pertinent, between the indicative of salvation and the imperative of moral commitment.

First, there is the proclamation of saving grace. The Lord foresees us and gives us forgiveness, gives us his love, the grace of being Christians, his brothers and sisters. This is an announcement that fills our life with joy and gives certitude to our actions. The Lord always foresees our acts with his goodness and the goodness of the Lord is always greater than all of our sins.

We must, however, commit ourselves in a coherent way to this gift that we have received and answer the proclamation of salvation with a generous and courageous path toward conversion. Looking at the Pauline model, the novelty is that Clement follows the doctrinal part and the practical part with a "great prayer," which practically concludes the letter.

The immediate occasion of the letter opened to the Bishop of Rome the possibility for vast intervention on the identity of the Church and its mission. If there were abuses in Corinth, Clement notes, the reason should be looked for in the weakening of charity and the necessary Christian virtues. This is why he calls all the faithful to humility and brotherly love, two virtues, truly the basis for being part of the Church. "We are the portion of the Holy One," he says, "let us do all those things which pertain to holiness" (30,1).

In particular, the Bishop of Rome recalls that the Lord himself, "where and by whom he desires these things to be done, he himself has fixed by his own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to his good pleasure, may be acceptable unto him. � For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to the laymen" (40,1-5: note that here, in this letter from the end of the first century, for the first time in Christian literature the Greek term "laik�s" appears which means "member of the laos," that is "the people of God").

This way, referring to the liturgy of ancient Israel, Clement reveals his ideal of the Church. This is gathered by his "one spirit of grace poured down upon us," which shows through the different members of the Body of Christ, in which all, joined without division are "members one of the other" (46,6-7).

The clear distinction between the "laymen" and the hierarchy does not mean, in any way, a contraposition but only the organic connection of a body, of an organism with different functions. In fact, the Church is not a place for confusion and anarchy, where someone can do whatever he wants at any time; each one in this organism with an articulated structure practices his ministry according to the vocation received.

As pertains to the heads of the communities, Clement specifies clearly the doctrine of apostolic succession. The laws that regulate this derive from God himself in an ultimate analysis. The Father sent Jesus Christ, who in turn sent the apostles. These then sent out the first heads of the communities, and established that they would be followed by worthy men. Therefore, all proceeds in "an orderly way, according to the will of the word of God" (42).

With these words, with these phrases, St. Clement underlines that the Church has a sacramental structure, not a political structure. God's actions that come to us in the liturgy precede our decisions and our ideas. The Church is above all a gift of God and not a creature of ours and therefore this sacramental structure not only guarantees the common order but also the precedence of the gift of God that we all need.

Finally, the "great prayer" confers a cosmic breath to the preceding discussion. Clement praises and thanks God for his great providence of love, who created the world and continued to save it and bless it. Particular relevance is given to the invocation for the governing body. After the New Testament texts, this represents the oldest prayer for political institutions. Thus, on the morrow of the persecution, Christians, well aware that the persecutions would continue, did not cease to pray for those very authorities that had condemned them unjustly.

The motive is above all Christological: One must pray for persecutors, as Jesus did on the cross. But this prayer also contains a teaching that guides, in the course of the centuries, the attitude of Christians in the face of politics and the state.

In praying for the authorities, Clement recognizes the legitimacy of the political institutions in the order established by God. At the same time, he manifests his concern that the authorities be docile to God and "exercise the power that God has given them in peace and gentleness with compassion" (61,2).

Caesar is not all. Another sovereignty emerges, whose origin and essence are not of this world, but "from above": It is that of Truth, which merits the right to be heard also in confrontations with the state."

Thus Clement's letter faces numerous themes of continuous actuality. This is more significant inasmuch as it represents, since the first century, solicitude of the Church of Rome, which presides in charity over all other churches.

With the same spirit we make our invocations as the "great prayer," where the Bishop of Rome becomes the voice for the entire world, "Yea, Lord, make your face to shine upon us for good in peace, that we may be shielded by your mighty hand ... we praise you through the high priest and guardian of our souls, Jesus Christ, through whom be glory and majesty to you both now and from generation to generation and for evermore. Amen" (60-61).

[Translation by ZENIT]

[At the end of the audience, the Pope greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our catechesis on the early Church, we now turn to the Apostolic Fathers. Saint Clement, Bishop of Rome and third successor of Peter, lived in the last years of the first century. He had met the apostles personally. Clement wrote an important letter to the Church in Corinth at a time when the Christian community was deeply divided. He encourages them to renew their faith in the message received from the apostles and to be reconciled with one another. In this way, he shows the essential connection between the content of the Gospel and the way we live. This connection is essential to Clement's ideal for the Church, in which the hierarchical structure is intrinsically ordered to the service of charity. Laity and hierarchy are not opposed, but organically connected in the mystery of the one body. According to Clement, not only the Church, but also the entire cosmos reflects God's providential love and mercy. Clement concludes his letter by praising God for this marvelous order. Let us join him as we beg the Lord to "make his face shine upon us in goodness and peace. Amen."

I offer a warm welcome to all the English-speaking visitors and pilgrims present at today's audience, especially the groups from Scotland, Denmark, Japan, Canada and the United States of America. May your pilgrimage renew your love for the Lord and his Church, and may God bless you all!

This is fascinating!

The First letter of St Clement is referred to as "almost canonical" - and it certainly was read aloud in Churches and included in an appendix in the back of the Vulgate Bible.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, to this day, includes the eight books of the Apostolic Constitutions (written by Clement) as part of their New Testament (of 35 rather than 27 books). At the end of those Constitutions is a listing of the New Testament books according to Clement and he orders his letter to be included in it!

Pope St Clement was martyred in Kazachya Bay that has recently been renamed "St Clement's Bay" and the Russian Orthodox Church distributes icons of him with small pebbles taken from underneath the waves of this bay in the Black Sea where St Clement was drowned with an anchor around his neck (anyone know where to obtain such an icon?).

St Volodymyr/Vladimir the Great declared St Clement a patron of his state and his son, St Yaroslav the Wise,, had an icon of St Clement placed in St Sophia of Kyiv Cathedral. At one time, the Divine Liturgy of St Clement was used universally in the undivided Church of Christ.

It is true that St Clement enjoyed a tremendous authority throughout the Church, not only owing to his being Bishop of Rome, but also because of his great closeness to Sts Peter and Paul. And his cult of veneration only increased after his death where the Scandinavian peoples honoured him as patron against drowning etc.

By the prayers of our Father among the Saints, the Holy Hieromartyr Clement of Rome and Tauria in Crimea, Lord Jesus Christ our God have mercy on us! Amen!

Alex

Alex,

Unless I am mistaken I believe that the Constitutions are pseudonymous. They are a bit later and attributed to Clement, but not written by Clement. I could be wrong though.

Joe

Dear Joe,

Could very well be - but they have them as inspired NT scripture and I'm reading them now . . .

Fascinating!

Alex

Alex,

Yes, they are fascinating texts.
I think you'll find in them info on which churches the apostles were responsible for founding.

Joe

I was very blown away by the very healthy view of Papal Primacy in one of these apologetic articles in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website. Click the link and read:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8523.asp

BOTH Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) currently have UN-healthy view of Papal Primacy. But the great news is that in the last 10 years or so, things are really looking well...both Churches are starting to have better understanding and healthy view.

And because of the increasing open-ness of the Orthodox Church to look into the issue of primacy with great hope, I'm much more inclined to become Orthodox.

You are correct to say that since the Churches split up, both Churches become disorted or disfigured in a way like a man is disfigured from the fall.

I PRAY with full heart and hope that the Churches will one day re-unite and restore it's true Pentarchy and FULLY function as a "complete" Church.

There is a book out there, I can't remember the name of the book and author, that responded to John Paul II's call for feed back on re-defining Papal Primacy. It was by an Orthodox theologian. He readily admitted that the Orthodox have irrational fear of Primacy and the Catholic Church have disorted views on Primacy. So that is a great hope, there's dialogue and increase communication.

One thing that I'm VERY moved about the Orthodox Churches is that the Orthodox Churches REFUSE to call upon any ecumencial council because one patriarch is missing..which is of Rome. That shows me how much the Orthodox already do respect Rome and do recognize the Primacy. What they don't like is HOW the primacy is excercised.

If two Churches get together and iron out on how it should be excercised...it would probably be over with much sooner than we think and we'll hear a gavel pound that disunity is the thing of the past!!!

I do understand though why Primacy has been abused in the Roman Church, probably mainly due to a huge shift of political atmosphere when the Roman Empire fell. But it's really still no excuse for that, ya know?

There is HOPE. Which is very important for us to have. Let's all look at the Crucified Christ together at this upcoming Passion and then let us joyously celebrate the triumph of HOPE.