www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Methodism in their Monasticism

Dear Friends,

Here is the website of a Methodist religious Order -

www.saint-luke.org [saint-luke.org]

Their Daily Office has seven hours (which rule they've taken from St Basil the Great) and they are fascinating as an example in Protestantism of following a rule of life, much like Taize, the Lutheran Benedictines et al.

Alex

I should have joined them when I was a Methodist. I would have converted even sooner. I knew of them and there were a couple of pastors I knew of on our Northern Ill. Conference but they weren't very active. Perhaps they will be a movement that moves people toward the Church.

CDL

Dear Servant and Friend in Christ, Prof. Daniel!!

Today I received two books of their six volume Daily Office and it is quite remarkable!

They have Christians from other denominations among their membership, even some Catholics.

It is beautiful when they refer to their Seven-Hour daily office as "life-giving."

God bless you, sir!

Alex

Methodism, at least in its USA context, certainly has its share of serious problems (as do all the so called "mainline" denominations). However, there are groups within Methodism, such as the order of St. Luke, that are cause for hope. My own experience as a student at Duke Divinity School (which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church) led me to Apostolic Christianity. Also, during my five years as a student at Duke, several students left Protestantism for either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. While I never became involved with the Order of St. Luke, several of my fellow students did. Also, several Methodist members of the faculty have great respect for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Also, there is a strong emphasis on the shared traditions of the undivided Church of the first ten centuries. Thanks be to God, there are indeed signs of hope within the darkness that overshadows so much of Protestantism.

Ryan

I believe that Thomas Oden, an evangelical theologian who promotes a return to the early church as the basis of ecumenism, is United Methodist.

Joe

I'm no expert, perhaps some of you who are more learned than I could enlighten me, but I heard that Wesley had a very developed Eucharistic theology which was extremely close to what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach. In fact, I also heard, that he had a Catholic convert who was a clergyman (a bishop perhaps?) who if he would have carried on with the laying of hands, could have passed Sacramental Lineage into the Methodist Church.

Truth or fiction?

Dr. Eric:
I don't know about the Catholic convert, but as a student at Duke Divinity School, I studied Wesley's Eucharistic theology (which is largely to be found in his Eucharistic hymns). While he rejected the language of transubstantiation, he affirmed that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ-a change that is effected by God and is a mystery inpenetrable to the human intellect). An interesting read is "The Eucharistic Hymns of John and Charles Wesley," edited by Ernest Rattenbury.

Ryan

Thanks for that bit of information, Ryan!

Wesley was also interested in the eastern fathers, especially the writings of St. Macarius the Great (Pseudo-Macarius more specifically). Wesley was influenced by emphasis on spiritual experience and "tasting the Holy Spirit" found in some of the early Christian writings.

Joe

Everyone here on Byzcath knows that the above tastes like CHOCOLATE!

I couldn't help myself.

Dr. Eric:

Very glad to be of help. I'm not an authority on Wesley by any means, but gaving spent five years at a Methodist theological school, one cannot avoid exposure to the thought of John Wesley, particularly when that school is Duke Divinity School, with several scholars who are very well versed in Wesley's life and teachings. Another very interesting thing I was told by Geoffrey Wainwright, the British Methodist scholar at Duke who was the professor who most influenced me, that the revival Wesley preached to the Church of England of which he was a priest was an "eucharistic, ethical, and evangelical" revival. To me, this "eucharistic, ethical, and evangelical" revival has the best hope of being realized in Orthodoxy and Catholicism. The celebration of the Eucharist is central to the liturgical life of both Orthodox and Catholic. Both Churches teach that the Gospel calls believers to a particular ethic that is-at least in its fullness-intelligible only by virtue of God's revelation mediated through the Church. I believe that in this context, "evangelical" means that Wesley taught that the true Christian is one who undergoes conversion from a life oriented towards sin to a life oriented towards Christ. This conversion leads ultimately to a life or perfection, that is, a life of sinlessness. I think this teaching provides shared common ground in which those whose context is Methodism can be introduced to the Eastern Christian teaching of theosis. I believe that those Methodists who truly wish to claim the heritage of John Wesley will ultimately find that the best of Wesley's teaching leads not to Methodism as it currently exists, but in a return to Apostolic Christianity-the Christianity of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Just my opinion.

Ryan

Another good post, thanks!

Is Dr. Alex making an allusion to Shakespeare? I think I just got the joke!

Methodism used to teach Theosis also. There is a controversy over a meeting John Wesly had with an Orthodox bishop,the so-called "legend of Erasmus"; some claimed he was ordained by this bishop:
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theo...ed%20Bishop%20by%20Erasmus_%2088-111.htm Wesley also used the Rosary.

David,

Thanks for that link. I had heard this rumor of Orthodox ordination several times but had never fully researched it. Wesley's teaching on holiness is a bit of a combination of Catholic and Orthodox theology. Perhaps Professor Alex is right in urging that Wesley be included among our saints, if not officially, at least for some who see in him a light for the true faith at least in this area.

CDL

CDL,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Could you enlighten me a bit more on Methodism? I must confess ignorance on Wesleyan Theology, except for the kids I used to know who went to Aldersgate.

Thanks,

Dr. Eric