www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Methodism in their Monasticism

Dear Friends,

Here is the website of a Methodist religious Order -

www.saint-luke.org [saint-luke.org]

Their Daily Office has seven hours (which rule they've taken from St Basil the Great) and they are fascinating as an example in Protestantism of following a rule of life, much like Taize, the Lutheran Benedictines et al.

Alex

I should have joined them when I was a Methodist. I would have converted even sooner. I knew of them and there were a couple of pastors I knew of on our Northern Ill. Conference but they weren't very active. Perhaps they will be a movement that moves people toward the Church.

CDL

Dear Servant and Friend in Christ, Prof. Daniel!!

Today I received two books of their six volume Daily Office and it is quite remarkable!

They have Christians from other denominations among their membership, even some Catholics.

It is beautiful when they refer to their Seven-Hour daily office as "life-giving."

God bless you, sir!

Alex

Methodism, at least in its USA context, certainly has its share of serious problems (as do all the so called "mainline" denominations). However, there are groups within Methodism, such as the order of St. Luke, that are cause for hope. My own experience as a student at Duke Divinity School (which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church) led me to Apostolic Christianity. Also, during my five years as a student at Duke, several students left Protestantism for either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. While I never became involved with the Order of St. Luke, several of my fellow students did. Also, several Methodist members of the faculty have great respect for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Also, there is a strong emphasis on the shared traditions of the undivided Church of the first ten centuries. Thanks be to God, there are indeed signs of hope within the darkness that overshadows so much of Protestantism.

Ryan

I believe that Thomas Oden, an evangelical theologian who promotes a return to the early church as the basis of ecumenism, is United Methodist.

Joe

I'm no expert, perhaps some of you who are more learned than I could enlighten me, but I heard that Wesley had a very developed Eucharistic theology which was extremely close to what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach. In fact, I also heard, that he had a Catholic convert who was a clergyman (a bishop perhaps?) who if he would have carried on with the laying of hands, could have passed Sacramental Lineage into the Methodist Church.

Truth or fiction?

Dr. Eric:
I don't know about the Catholic convert, but as a student at Duke Divinity School, I studied Wesley's Eucharistic theology (which is largely to be found in his Eucharistic hymns). While he rejected the language of transubstantiation, he affirmed that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ-a change that is effected by God and is a mystery inpenetrable to the human intellect). An interesting read is "The Eucharistic Hymns of John and Charles Wesley," edited by Ernest Rattenbury.

Ryan

Thanks for that bit of information, Ryan!

Wesley was also interested in the eastern fathers, especially the writings of St. Macarius the Great (Pseudo-Macarius more specifically). Wesley was influenced by emphasis on spiritual experience and "tasting the Holy Spirit" found in some of the early Christian writings.

Joe

Everyone here on Byzcath knows that the above tastes like CHOCOLATE!

I couldn't help myself.

Dr. Eric:

Very glad to be of help. I'm not an authority on Wesley by any means, but gaving spent five years at a Methodist theological school, one cannot avoid exposure to the thought of John Wesley, particularly when that school is Duke Divinity School, with several scholars who are very well versed in Wesley's life and teachings. Another very interesting thing I was told by Geoffrey Wainwright, the British Methodist scholar at Duke who was the professor who most influenced me, that the revival Wesley preached to the Church of England of which he was a priest was an "eucharistic, ethical, and evangelical" revival. To me, this "eucharistic, ethical, and evangelical" revival has the best hope of being realized in Orthodoxy and Catholicism. The celebration of the Eucharist is central to the liturgical life of both Orthodox and Catholic. Both Churches teach that the Gospel calls believers to a particular ethic that is-at least in its fullness-intelligible only by virtue of God's revelation mediated through the Church. I believe that in this context, "evangelical" means that Wesley taught that the true Christian is one who undergoes conversion from a life oriented towards sin to a life oriented towards Christ. This conversion leads ultimately to a life or perfection, that is, a life of sinlessness. I think this teaching provides shared common ground in which those whose context is Methodism can be introduced to the Eastern Christian teaching of theosis. I believe that those Methodists who truly wish to claim the heritage of John Wesley will ultimately find that the best of Wesley's teaching leads not to Methodism as it currently exists, but in a return to Apostolic Christianity-the Christianity of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Just my opinion.

Ryan

Another good post, thanks!

Is Dr. Alex making an allusion to Shakespeare? I think I just got the joke!

Methodism used to teach Theosis also. There is a controversy over a meeting John Wesly had with an Orthodox bishop,the so-called "legend of Erasmus"; some claimed he was ordained by this bishop:
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theo...ed%20Bishop%20by%20Erasmus_%2088-111.htm Wesley also used the Rosary.

David,

Thanks for that link. I had heard this rumor of Orthodox ordination several times but had never fully researched it. Wesley's teaching on holiness is a bit of a combination of Catholic and Orthodox theology. Perhaps Professor Alex is right in urging that Wesley be included among our saints, if not officially, at least for some who see in him a light for the true faith at least in this area.

CDL

CDL,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Could you enlighten me a bit more on Methodism? I must confess ignorance on Wesleyan Theology, except for the kids I used to know who went to Aldersgate.

Thanks,

Dr. Eric

John and Charles Wesley, I believe, did as much for Christianity in the English speaking countries as almost anyone else alive given their obvious limitations of not being fully members of the Church. Both were Anglican priests who were very frustrated with the spiritual condition of the Anglican Church of the eighteenth century. Charles was high Church and might well have kept John from becoming too anti-Catholic, though he was convinced that "Papism" was evil and "Transubstantiation" was wrong. They were both evangelical dynamos. Theire main emphasis was to create societies linked to the Anglican Church which would emphasise social and personal holiness. British Methodism is much closer to Wesley's ideals than is the modern United Methodist Church. I don't think that either Wesley would have anything to do with the modern United Methodist Church or any of its break away groups. I'd like to think that he would find his way to us or the Orthodox but would probably more than likely be part of the AMIA (Anglican mission in America).

Charles wrote 6,000+ hymns during his life. I suspect that everyone on this board knows some of them. "Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending" is my favorite but I am also partial to "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing". I could write for several days on this subject but I suggest you do a google search.

CDL

CDL,

Thanks. We sing many Wesleyan hymns in the Latin Church (in America.)

I know that I could google it but then I wouldn't get your interpretation of it. Sometimes I like to hear what my friends have to say about something before I research it. It helps me to get to know them better.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

I have a high regard for Wesleyanism but it barely exists anymore. I think I may have left the impression that I was brushing you off. I didn't mean to imply that. But there really is alot to say, I don't have enough time to say it. Perhaps in a few days you and I can start an entire thread on Wesleyanism and its close affinity with Apostolic Christianity.

CDL

CDL,

I know that you weren't brushing me off. And I know that there are libraries and libraries devoted to Wesleyanism so I took no offense. I just wanted to read what you had to write on the matter.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

In some sort of mysterious way, I credit John Wesley with leading me to Orthodoxy. I was raised in the Methodist Church, left as a teen, then, as part of an ongoing conversion in my 30's, belonged to the Wesleyan Church (a holiness offshoot of Methodism). I felt that to be a good Wesleyan I should learn more about Rev. Wesley, and in my studies discovered that he had at least a slight familiarity with a few of the Eastern Fathers. One thing led to another and....I was chrismated in 1999. It's sad he had no firsthand experience of Orthodoxy. SVS Press has two books out which resulted from a Wesleyan-Orthodox dialogue. I have the first, and it's quite good. The dogma of theosis and Wesleyan holiness teaching are quite similar, though the Wesleayn approach lacks the nuances and patristic depth of the Orthodox teaching.

Being raised as a Methodist, I will always have the highest regard for the Methodist ethos. Obviously I have a bias, but if I were ever going to be Protestant (which of course I wouldn't), I'd probably choose to be Methodist.

By the way, my United Methodist church (which my immediate family, all my cousins, and my grandparents still attend) is fairly liturgically traditional. Two acolytes light candles for every service, and are dressed in cassock and alb, as well as a pectoral cross (I served as an acolyte).

The altar is in the center of the sanctuary, is stone, and has engraved in the front "Do This In Rememberance Of Me." The ministers wear black cassocks and liturgically color-appropriate stoles (though no chasuble of any sort), and the deacon wears a black cassock with a liturgically-color appropriate deacon's stole.

The music is all accompanied by a magnificent organ, and there are even tapestries of the Twelve Apostles lining the walls. The music is usually 17th and 18th century Wesleyan hymns, though the organ music for processional, recessional, etc. is almost always by Bach or other like-minded traditional composers.

Oh, and there is the altar rail in it's usual place, where congregants come up and kneel to receive communion, which is usually once a month.

All in all, a more "liturgically fulfilling" experience than many a modern-day Roman Catholic church in America.

Logos - Alexis

Joe, this is interesting. Do you have a link?

Thanks.

Mary Jo aka Porter

Mary Jo:
You might check out this Wikipedia article on Thomas Oden.
Ryan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Oden

Ryan,

Thanks, just read it.

Mary Jo

Logos,

I run across students in both the secular college and the Catholic University where I teach whose families used to be Roman Catholics. Many just drop out entirely because they found the Church to be meaningless. Others found their way to more demanding independent or so called non-denominational Churches. When I ask them why they think that their families left it is almost always because liturgy was so insipid or maudlin that it did not deserve even the 45 minutes asked of them. Yes, better catechesis would help but that alone won't answer the deep yearnings of the soul when the building looks like a gymnasium and those giving the body and blood of Christ aren't ordained and the liturgy is so bereft of content and power that it would not inspire anyone catechesis isn't going to do much good.

Many of our Eastern Churches are afraid of their own patrimony and so where does a person who wants meet go.

A man introduced himself to me who has just begun attending Annunciation. He said that he began as a Roman Catholic but left sometime in the 1970s because the watering down going on. In the subsequent years he wandered through eight different denominational and non-denominational and non-non-denominational churches until he heard Father Loya speak. He is being drawn by the Holy Spirit. We will be so filled that searching people will find him in our Churches?

That was Wesley's yearning. Is it ours?

CDL

Dan:
This is a bit off topic, but hopefully Roman Catholic bishops and priests will take note of the Protestants who are becoming either Orthodox or Eastern Catholic, as well as those of their own flocks who are attending Eastern Catholic Churches. So many are doing so exactly because they attend Divine Liturgy and they encounter the power of the Holy Spirit in a way they do not elsewhere. If enough Roman bishops do so, perhaps liturgy will once again be treated with the respect and dignity that is appropriate to worship of God. There are signs of hope. I live in Houston, and Archbishop Dinardo of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, who began his tenure fairly recently, has brought a Melkite priest, Fr. Damon Geiger, to St. Mary's Seminary in Houston to serve as spiritual director to the seminarians. One of the seminarians I know through a class at the seminary, attends Divine Liturgy on occasion at my parish. He told me that the Archbishop wants the seminarians to be well-informed about Eastern Catholicism and that he wants them to experience the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. At my parish, we are fortunate that Fr. Damon is able to attend about once a month. In fact, he said Divine Liturgy for us today, in the absence of our pastor. When he comes, there are generally several seminarians who come with him. I'm thankful that they are learning about Eastern Catholicism and that they are seeing that liturgy does not have to be devoid of beauty and reverence. I see this as a sign of hope.
Blessings,
Ryan

Dear Friends,

I've spent the weekend reading about the Methodists listed in the Order of St Luke's Commemorations volume and I've also loved reading all your posts here!

Where Wesleyan tradition stands above Protestantism is in its insistence that holiness and salvation are part of a life-long process. The Order of St Luke has called on the insights of numerous Methodist scholars and these have no qualms, as we can see, invoking tradition to bring back the seven-hour daily Office, a solid Eucharistic theology, and I see that in the Order of St Luke's prayers, there is invocation of Our Lady and the Saints. They also don't make any "ex cathedra" statements about this or that and say the life of the Spirit will lead them to keep or drop this or that from their calendar etc.

Their emphasis on holiness inevitably leads them to emphasize a celebration of particular embodiments of holiness and they draw on the Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran calendars, as well as from their own historic tradition.

As one wrote, for Methodists to study, imitate and honour John Wesley is to affirm their own spiritual identity.

So it is with the saints of our own various traditions, Catholic and Orthodox.

The offices they have developed are used friendly and very inspiring.

Their example is one we can all follow within our own traditions to great spiritual benefit.

It is obvious that those who have posted here who were either formerly Methodist or who came under the influence of Methodism have been touched with Wesley's own strong, devotional and disciplined spirit that you have brought over to your lives as Catholics and Orthodox.

You yourselves have embodied the spiritual podvig of John Wesley and have brought it to fruition in your contemporary lives as Catholics and Orthodox.

You are a true blessing and have shown that Wesleyan Methodism is meant to enrich the historic Church in every way.

"And the best thing is that God is for us!" (John Wesley's final words).

I salute you!

Alex