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Father John,

Can you please post specific examples of personal attacks and accusations against Father David? I see lots of disagreement on issues and occasional over-emotion but no personal attacks. If you cannot provide any specific references I must ask you to please refrain from making false accusations.

John / Admin

It seems to me, John, that reporting things that have been said about Fr. David is to perpetuate gossip and thus inappropriate on many levels--especially during the Fast. I have heard people say unfair and unkind words about Fr. David as people have tried to "recruit" me to their side. I will not give you their names, nor do I think it would be appropriate. I know that he has heard negative statements as well -- I applaud his steadfastness and perseverance.

I do think, however, that there is a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes charitable discourse. I know that I am not the only one with this opinion. I have heard from people who no longer participate in this Forum precisely for this reason.

I honestly applaud the Liturgical Commission for their work and truly feel that they had the best interests of the Metropolia at heart, since the new liturgy is more than likely a step up for many parishes, if it will be taken as written in the new liturgikon. However I cannot applaud the use of such innovations as a "vesperal Liturgy" which to my knowledge is only the norm for Holy Thursday, Christmas, Easter, and perhaps Annunciation. I also understand that if people can't go to mass in their parish on Saturday evenings, they'll probably go to a RC church, so it's better to have a such a liturgy and keep people in their parishes.

And yes it's true that New Skete, a few newer OCA parishes, and some of the parishes that were received into the Antiochian Archdiocese from the Evangelical Orthodox church have made some of the changes that are now in our liturgikon. However they are not all that wide spread and I understand that Met. Philip clamped down on some of these changes as well.

New Skete is not a good example as they are a monastic foundation, but there is a following in the OCA at large that supports and from what I understand, have tried to implement some of their revisions in parochial life. I attended the Vigil (vespers/matins combination) for a great feast there last year, and unfortunately it barely felt Orthodox, which was quite a disappointment. But for those who appreciate shorter services, it was done in one hour exactly, litya and all.

This is true. I am middle age and kept doing a yo-yo back and forth between washing my hands of the whole thing by running to the OCA--and staying in the Church to fight for a retraction. I have decided to fight. I have sent five letters to Rome. I will do what I can to fight for the retraction of this revision. At some point, if all the faithful are ignored by Rome, I will have to make a very difficult decision.

Father John,

Thank you for your post.

I am very puzzled by your post. You need not actually publicly post the specific examples of posts that you believe have been unkind to Father David (or anyone else). The Forum offers a �Notify� feature by which you make bring such posts to the attention of the moderators. It also offers a Private Message feature by which you can send examples to me. As far as I can tell you have not made much use of these features to bring such examples to the attention of moderators or administrators for review. We do not receive all that many complaints about posts, but when we do receive them we investigate them and if they are found to be accurate we act. At this point I must ask you to provide specific examples of what you consider to be uncharitable or stop making such accusations.

Yes, different people do often look at things differently. For me charitable discourse is when people can agree or disagree and not be disagreeable or uncivil. In the discussions on Liturgy I can respect the education, intelligence and love for the Church by someone like Father David while disagreeing with him. My disagreement is not mere ignorance because I can find much support for the positions I advance in the official Vatican documents on Liturgy, the writings of the current Holy Father (and other scholars) and elsewhere.

I do know that some equate any disagreement with their personal opinions as an uncharitable personal attack. That is unfortunate and those who feel that way should not participate in public forums where people are free to disagree with them.

Yes, I do hear occasionally from people that they have chosen not to participate here because they feel that people have been uncharitable with their responses. Sometimes posters have lost privileges because of their uncharity. Mostly, however, when I investigate such claims of uncharity it turns out that the poster who is complaining has withdrawn because he found that people disagreed with him and that he could not come to terms with it (defend his position / whatever).

John / Admin

Thank you, John, for pointing out what every academic should be mature and objective enough to know and understand - that there are those who will have disagreements with a corpus of academic work and will not agree with nor support conclusions of that work.

That does not equate to an insinuation of being "stupid or ignorant", nor does polite and charitable debate result in "patronizing". That response in itself is extremely disturbing regarding the reception of objective comments and criticism to the work of the Commission. I ask all here to look at this very, very closely.

I also know people who will not participate on this Forum anymore because they do not feel any dissenting comments or observations to the New Ruthenian Rite will end up with anything more than this kind of dismissive attitude.

I also am puzzled by Fr. John's comment regarding discourse, as I believe it was actually he who commented on this very Forum that many of the academic discussions he participates in are as heated, if not moreso, than those here.

I rather thank God that there are those concerned about and love their faith enough to say or do something, whether for or against the New Rite. Let everyone be heard. I am in science as a profession, and have been involved in discussions of research and conclusions far more heated and involved than these. There is nothing I hate more than to see observations or criticism quelled or dismissed.

While there are many aspects of the New Rite I don't agree with, I called for optional implementation many months ago - let the merits of the New Rite stand for itself. Voluntary performance is always a fairly objective yardstick. Let's see really and truly what pastors and communities want the New Rite without a forced implementation. But we will have to see what that lack of objectivity and economia brings in the longer run. Very intolerant, and ignoring a potentially large population of clergy and faithful, looking at it as a whole.

Posted by IM in the topic about the revision of the Presanctified Liturgy from LA:

"80. The practice of seeking the recognitio from the Apostolic See for all translations of liturgical books56 accords the necessary assurance of the authenticity of the translation and its correspondence with the original texts. (my comment: HUH?) This practice both expresses and effects a bond of communion between the successor of blessed Peter and his brothers in the Episcopate. Furthermore, this recognitio is not a mere formality, but is rather an exercise of the power of governance, which is absolutely necessary (in the absence of which the act of the Conference of Bishops entirely in no way attains legal force); and modifications even substantial ones may be introduced by means of it.57

For this reason it is not permissible to publish, for the use of celebrants or for the general public, any liturgical texts that have been translated or recently composed, as long as the recognitio is lacking. Since the lex orandi must always be in harmony with the lex credendi and must manifest and support the faith of the Christian people, the liturgical translations will not be capable of being worthy of God without faithfully transmitting the wealth of Catholic doctrine from the original text into the vernacular version, in such a way that the sacred language is adapted to the dogmatic reality that it contains.58"

I guess that finally answers the questions I had when I started this topic and no one could or would seem to answer. The recognitio IS NOT merely a prefunctory once-over by Rome, but "an exercise of the power of governance, which is absolutely necessary."

Also, the second paragraph speaks of publishing liturgical texts for use without the recognitio. What about using unpublished texts that may have a recognitio but that recognitio is unknown to the church at large? Also, what constitutes "publishing?" I'm sure that the church has a definition for that too.