www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

One of the things you do not want to do is look to the abuses of power and authority to define the meaning of a doctrine or theological truth.

But more importantly, we, both Catholic and Orthodox, are examining our respective forms of governance and finding that the real, in history, has often not met the ideal.

So if I were you, I would not make the issues of Church governance the pivotal issue. Changes are on the horizon, if not mutually agreed, then at least internally, respectively.

Mary

I am not sure if I understand your post. Are you saying that Rome is in the process of backing off the doctrine of Papal infallibility and primacy?

I'm not so sure I would categorize my issues with the papacy as pivitol, but it is important to me. I'm not sure it is so much an issue of governance as it is an issue of comfortable familiarity. All my life I have known and repected "the earthly shepherd" of the Catholic Church. As a small child, I would watch the Christmas eve Mass late at night. I was always secure knowing that the successor of Peter was the bishop of Rome. But now I know that all bishops are successors of Peter......and John, and James, and Andrew, etc., etc...

But my love for the Pope of Rome has been instilled in my heart from birth...it is difficult for me.

R

But when it comes to the primacy of Peter which has been traditionally ascribed by East and West to the Bishop of Rome, it would seem that two principles are at work here - one eternal and the other temporal. The apostolic college and the Petrine primacy as defined in the Gospels and by the Church Fathers bespeaks more than just the temporal exercise of power in Church governance. There is also an eternal principle involved, as illustrated by these passages from Matthew's Gospel:

Matthew 19:28:


Mattew 16:18-19



Now the precise nature of all this in the temporal sphere (which would seem to mirror eternity) appears to be what is contested on both sides.

Just my two cents...

Gordo

Didn't mean to lead you in that direction. Gordo's post explains why I would not suggest that as a possibility. What the Church has defined will stand. It simply seems to me at the level of the bilateral discussions there may be a way of reconciling the doctrine while making the exercise of primatial power something that is wide open to discussion. I've talked about that in other threads.



Yes. But not quite in the same primatial manner as the bishop of Rome. And that is not so loudly denied among Orthodox hierarchs as one might think. So it is time to hold fast to our prayers, and watch, on this score. That is all that I was saying.


I surely do understand that response. Sometimes he has been the safest respite, for my soul and psyche, in the face of some of the behaviors of others in the Church in my lifetime.

Mary

Christ is Risen!

Unfortunately this thread is starting to bring out the worst in some posters. I have received no fewer than four moderator notifications this morning. I have deleted the previous five posts for they were posts and replies that are not of the standards expected of posters here on ByzCath. In reviewing things, I think this thread needs to be closed and ask that when posting in other threads that cooler heads are needed in posting.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator