www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

I have come to a very difficult decision. I will be taking my family to an OCA Church for vespers this coming Saturday. This will be the first step toward the exploration of joining the Holy Orthodox Church. As I have said before, the RDL is the final nudge that I needed. It is very likely that I would have waited for a retraction, (and I do believe there will be a retraction), but I cannot wait for ten, twenty, or even thirty years because I have a small child to raise. I refuse to raise my child in a Church that has surrendered to the secular, humanistic, politically correct agenda of the radical feminists. My child deserves to learn and to pray in the language of our Fathers. I believe there are many concerns with this revision, but the inclusive language is a travesty! This is not an easy decision since I have been in communion with Rome all of my life, but it is a calling, and I must follow the call. There is no doubt in my mind that the revisionists had nothing but good intentions when they decided to re-translate the Divine Liturgy, but my heart tells me that the result has wounded the Church. Fr Benedict Groeschel states that sometimes extremely intelligent men commit extremely large errors. He says that "the highest mountains cast the largest shadows".

I will never stop praying for the Ruthenian Catholic Church and all of the Eastern Catholic Churches. I urge all who will remain to never stop fighting the promulgation and approval of this RDL. I will pray that the Lord gives you strength to fight the good fight.

Peace and blessings to all of you,
Recluse

Recluse,

May you and your family find peace in your new Church. Go with
God (S'Bohom) and Xpucmoc Bockpece!

Ungcsertezs

Thank you Ungcsertezs!

Many years!

This is the most heart breaking part of the post. It is ashame to see anybody driven away, but the most important demographic are those with children, and unfortunately this demographic is rare in our churches so we can't really afford to lose too many of this group.

Don't think for one second that Recluse is alone in this sentiment. I know of many of our young that are disillunsioned (rightly or wrongly) by this revision. Let us pray that the revision is not the final nail in the coffin of our future.

I'm also growing weary of comments regarding the 'good intentions' of the revisionists. To my fellow lovers of Holy Tradition, this is a liberal thought process. Liberals are always asking to be judged by their intentions rather than by thier results. The results of this misguided revision will unfortunately be the same as most liberal initiatives, poor results. One of which is our church, which cannot afford to loose any more of its young families, loosing its young families. And here we have yet another example.

Hospodi Pomiluj!

Monomakh

And what will become of the Ruthenian Metropolia in ten years? Will it be just a few churches struggling without vocations (and a married priesthood) that will have to beg the Roman Catholic bishops for the use of Bi-ritual priests? I shudder to think what the future will become for this once vibrant Eastern Catholic Church.

Ungcsertezs

GOD be with you Recluse! Prayers will be offered for you and your family!

I can perfectly understand your responsibilities as a parent. I share your concern.

God be with you Recluse! May GOD strengthen and comfort you and yours!

Greetings Monomakh,

Christ Is Risen!

I understand what you are saying here. I am a major opponent of this revision. However, I find it dificult to believe that the revisionists have taken on this "work" as a way to put the final nail in the coffin and set the course for the extinction of the Ruthenian Catholic Church. I have heard some say that it was a work of pride and ego. I have heard others say that it is a work of ecumenism in an effort to attract disillusioned women back to the Church (however I have never met one of these disillusioned women unless they were extreme radical feminists). Whatever the motivation, whether it be a sincere belief in a "better" translation---pride and egoism---ecumenism--or liberal seminary education---I do not believe it was done in an effort to end the Church.

The result may indeed end the Church because I believe the fruit of this revision will continually rot with time, but I do not believe it was the revisionist's intention.

I am not defending the revisionists nor do I want to judge them as individuals--I do not know what is in their hearts. But I am convinced that the revision as set forth and promulgated and approved for the Ruthenian Catholic Church, is a terrible, terrible, error.

Blessings to you,
Recluse

I understand your move. Rod Dreher, a writer in Dallas, left Catholicism for Orthodoxy because of similar reasons. I opted to stop attending the Ruthenian parish in my area once I caught wind of the RDL. I knew it was a done deal. The libs always win on such matters in the short term, but God wins in the long run (conclusively too)

I wonder though: It strikes me that the issue is really one of culture rather than ecclesiology, doctrine, etc. Given this, what happens when Americanism/modernity/whatever-you-wanna-call-it seeps into Orthodoxy? Something to keep in mind is that Orthodoxy has experienced a heavy influx of converts from mainstream American culture over the past decade. These converts are often times people who carry the ideology of feminism/democracy/egalitarianism with them. How long do you think Orthodoxy will survive without its own, ahem, "revisions" to venerable worship and customs? Are you really sure that the American rot hasn't already set in?

These are some of the questions I've wrestled with in deciding whether to remain Catholic or not. The grass always looks greener. But unlike you Recluse, I've no children or spouse to worry about, so I certainly see your incentive for acting is greater than mine. I wish you and your family the best and am happy for you.

Recluse,

My statement wasn't only to you as I've seen it written many times by many other people.

Now I can hear others claiming that I am saying that the intentions are not good. That is not what I am saying. Can we all agree that the intentions were good, the liturgy has been promulgated, and discuss what the ramifications are now? And that is what I am bringing up, what the results will be. Wouldn't we have more positive results if all the time, money, and effort went towards evangelization?

As for Recluse, I pray that you and your family will have a spiritual and rewarding journey.

Monomakh

Thank you corsair,

Your prayers mean a lot to me. I need them--especially at this crossroads in my life. As a Catholic, born and raised Roman Catholic and canonically changed to the Eastern Church, there is a hesitancy with breaking communion with Rome. But I must do what I feel is best for my family. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!

I will pray for you also, corsair!

My apologies--I am not accusing you of such a thing.
Yes. This is where attention needs to be directed.
Yes. It seems like a no-brainer. That is the most frustrating part.
Thank you my friend.

It has already been dealt with in the Orthodox Church. I cannot recall the link, so I will tell you by memory. In 1997, the S.C.O.B.A revised the Nicene Creed to delete the word "men" so that it read: "for us and for our salvation..." The people and the clergy were not happy, but this horizontal inclusive language remained for about eight years. Then, another change occured. The Creed was changed again to read that Jesus "became human". There was widespread outrage from the clergy and the people in response to this vertical inclusive language. Hence, about eight years after the horizontal inclusive language, the Creed was changed back to its original and ancient translation. So you see, I don't expect the Orthodox to have this problem again anytime soon.

P.s.--note the progression from horizontal inclusive language to vertical inclusive language. I believe that once you open the liberal radical feminist door, it is very difficult to close again. Better to keep it locked up tight!

As one who made the move to Orthodoxy 5 months ago, I am praying for you and wish you well in your journey. May you find the same peace and happiness that I have in my new spiritual home.

Christos Voskrese!

Voistinu Voskrese!

Thank you Etnick!

You are an inspiration to me and your prayers are appreciated!

Following in Etnick's footsteps...

As one who made the move as well one year ago myself. (Family concerns were also a major part of prompting my return to Orthodoxy.) You and your family will be remembered in my prayers. I hope you find the same joy that we have found.

Chris

Thank you Chris. I can already feel everyone's prayers lifting up, and strengthening me and my family.

Blessings to all!

Dear Recluse,

This hits very close to home with me.

I am limited as to what I can say here but I am unwelcome in my home parish, so there's more than the liturgy that impels me to spend my Sundays in an Orthodox parish.

But there's more than a liturgy, or any person or persons, between me and my Church, so I keep going on in this shadowland where I do not recognize a formal schism, but do respect the fact of the schism and try my best to understand how that plays out in very practical and pastoral terms.

Add to that the fact that I dearly love the parish where I attend and the priest who shepherds us, and you'll have some idea of who I am and what I do. In short, were I on better terms in my home jurisdiction, I would be attending both and doing what I could to be active in both.

Wednesday of Great and Holy Week was very difficult for me. I found myself standing before Father saying that I wanted him to receive me into Orthodoxy. His eyes popped open and then hooded again and he said "Mary, you must convert." Something inside of me sagged, for I knew what was coming.

What he meant by "convert" was that there are a list of things that I must swear are false in the Catholic Church before he will receive me into Orthodoxy.

I sat and listened to the list after everyone left. Some things are indeed not what the Catholic Church teaches and so I would have no difficulty in swearing that they are false, because they are false.

But there were two things that I simply cannot swear. I cannot swear that papal primacy as my Church teaches it, and as I understand it, is false. I cannot swear that the Immaculate Conception is a false teaching.

I could keep the Immaculate Conception as a private devotion, leaving it to the hierarchs to work out the doctrinal issues in time. I could privately continue to accept the pope as the supreme primatial authority in the Church here on earth.

But to publicly swear before a priest of Orthodoxy to an item list, even if I did not have to swear an item list at the time of my Chrismation, that the Church of my Baptism is false is just not possible for me to do.

Father suggested that I let the Holy Spirit work for a while. I laughed to myself and thought that perhaps if I listened a little more closely, I just might quit trying to continue this one woman crusade that I started some years ago. It is not always easy to determine self-will from the will of God.

All that to say that you and your family have my prayers. Please do not become as so many do, who move from the Catholic Church to Orthodoxy. Remember where you came from. Keep those who remain in the Church of their Baptism, in your prayers.

Blessings, with great affection, in Christ,

Mary

Following Ethnick and Job, I also say God bless you and welcome to Orthodoxy. I became Orthodox just this past Theophany of 2007. If you have any questions about making the move, just let me know. God bless.

Joe

Greetings Mary,

Your concerns are valid. In fact, they are the reasons I am not Orthodox at this very moment. However, I have in time come to a different understanding. Through much prayer and study, I have come to look at the Church as it was before the schism (which began many years before the official 1054 date). I do not see a papal primacy/supremacy. I see a primacy of honor where all bishops are equal. I have read many quotes from Church Fathers (ie: St John Chrysostom) which seem to indicate a papal primacy, but many more quotes (including St John Chrysostom) which seem to indicate a primacy of honor. So that one is not a problem for me. The immaculate conception is an interesting doctrine. Even though we are a Church in communion with Rome, I have never been able to prompt a Ruthenian Catholic priest to admit to me that we adhere to this doctrine as the Roman Catholics do (although I am sure they are out there). The problem lies with the Orthodox vs Catholic understanding of original sin. I have never been able to wrap my mind around the differences. Some Orthodox will tell you that Our Lady was purified at the Annuciation. Others will tell you that she never sinned, but was born in the same state as any other human because Jesus received His true human nature from her. In other words, they leave this understanding undefined and wrapped in mystery. I am okay with these understandings--the veneration of Our Lady in the Orthodox Church is next to none. (But of course you already know this).
What year was the immaculate conception defined in the Catholic Church? 1854? I am very comfortable with the acceptance of everything set forth in the first seven oecumenical councils.
This one is interesting and indeed the most difficult for me. I will always believe that the Catholic Church has apostolic succession, sufficient grace, and valid sacraments--will I be denied acceptance into Holy Orthodoxy because of this belief? Most jurisdictions of Holy Orthodoxy will accept my baptism and bring me into the Church through confession and chrismation. My baptism is accepted through Ekonomia but will I be expected to confess that the Catholic Church is a false Church?

I thank you for your prayers dear Mary,
Recluse

I find this hard to understand, as I did nothing more than make a profession of faith. I did not have to explicitly reject anything. It was a positive affirmation.

I don't even understand on what basis one could say the IC is false for instance as it was never addressed in the councils.

Mary,

Your post moved me greatly. I found myself in a similar position some 8 years ago, standing before an Orthodox clergyman whom I deeply respect and whose friendship was and is very important to me, asking about the possibility of being received. He told me that he would chrismate me the following week if I desired it, but his caution to me was the difficult state of Orthodox Church polity and the need to consider the benefit of a unified magisterial voice pointing to official teaching. IOW, if I desired full communion with Orthodoxy, he wanted me to enter with both eyes open to its difficulties.

For me it is always what Orthodoxy affirms that has had the greatest appeal, and what it (or at least some within it) denies that I have never been quite able to overcome. The issues you mention are precisely my issues - the ones that cause me to remain where I am.

With that said, I am perplexed by the title of this thread: "farewell to my bretheren". Is entry into communion with the Orthodox Church a "farewell"? Perhaps...or perhaps not. I suppose it depends upon what one denies.

God bless.

In ICXC,

Gordo

"This one is interesting indeed and the most difficult. I will always believe that the Catholic Church has apostolic succession, sufficient grace, and valid sacraments--will I be denied acceptance into Holy Orthodoxy because of this belief? Most jurisdictions of Holy Orthodoxy will accept my baptism and bring me into the Church through confession and chrismation. My baptism is accepted through Ekonomia but will I be expected to confess that the Catholic Church is a false Church?"


Before I was chrismated, my priest laid it all out as far as what the Orthodox church believes and doesn't believe. But I did not publicly renounce the Catholic church. The ceremony was more or less a standard chrismation. It involved confession, chrismation, tonsuring, and being churched. Hope this helps.

Christ is Risen!

Recluse and All who suffer similar sentimets and discernments,

My family heritage in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church via the married priesthood can be traced back 300 years. With that in mind, and being a "thoroughbred" Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic, I deeply regret the fact that the Church of my own heritage can no longer serve as the spirtual home for your family. Without in any way presuming to assuage the depth of your current consternation or to trivialize the genuineness of your discernment on behalf of your family and of yourself, I must nonetheless implore you to consider remaining with the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. My reasons for saying this to you are the following:

1. As The Sultan of Suede so wisely cautioned, you may find similar types of challenges already in place in the Orthodox Church, perhaps even in some ways more formidable than in the Ruthenian Church. (See Fr. Thomas Hopko's various responses to feminist agendas in the Orthodox Church.)

2.Your leaving at this time will sevrve to reinforce what I believe is the perception that our Church has of the discontent over the RDL:

"Oh, its just a few nut cases on the forum. Good Riddens! We will be better off without them. The nerve of THOSE people trying tell us how to run OUR Church. Who do they think they are?!!" Also: "It's just a few arch-conservative disgruntled former Latin Rite Catholics who were just passing through our Church until the Old Latin Rite comes back. They have no real committment to OUR Church. See! See! I told you so! As soon as OUR Church changed anything they ran! They were just opportunists. I knew they wouldn't stay." We are better off without those troublemakers."

If this is the perception on the part of our Church and if indeed this is not an accurate perception, the question is how will our Church develop an accurate perception unless our Church leaders hear from EVERY person who is at the same point as Recluse and others? Of course, a person's case has to be respectful and credible. Being against change simply because it is change or "I have been singing this music for 45 years and I am not about to change" will simply be disqualified at the get go. It will also serve to diminish our Church's receptivity to legitimate cases.

More and more it is being revealed to me (I ACTUALLY hear religioius and laity alike say this) that to many it does not matter if our Church dies. Even if great numbers of people leave our Church I believe that some in our Church have given up. They have resigned themselves to what is perceived to be the inevitable fate of the Ruthenian Church (and for that matter ALL Eastern Christian Churches in the western world! This I have actually heard from Orthodox!!)

I actually hear: "As long as the Church is here for me I do not care what happens afterward." Many parts of our Church would in fact rather die than change. Many people have no problem clutching onto what they believe is "our Church" and taking that portion of it to their graves with them. I always thought that this was unthinkable or that you could inspire people to open up by cautioning them against taking our Church to their graves with them. But I am learning that taking our Church to their graves with them is what they are perfectly content to do.

But, this could actually be GOOD NEWS! This could be the major pruning, the "razing to the ground and rebuilding" that I will never stop advocating for and praying for. I believe that we will decrease, implode, come to the brink of extinction and maybe we NEED to! But, I believe that in these ashes there will be burning coals remaining as there are even now, few but they still do burn. These few remaining burning coals will be able to start a new grassfire for the Eastern Catholic Churches who will be at first smaller and fewer but mightier. So, as regrettable as dying may seem,it may actually be necessary as the precursor to the real "New Evangelization" of the Eastern Churches.
Funny how I should be pointing to a dying-rising rhythm for the future of our Church during Bright Week??!!

So, Recluse and others, I simply implore you to be a part of the "Phoenix" that I believe will rise out of the ashes of what we have known as the Eastern Catholic Churches. You do not owe your children a "perfect" Church. You owe them the invaluable life forming principles of Dad's example of committment to the truth and how love of anything means riding the crests and low points, of standing in there and giving it your all, of making that contribution that is uniquely yours, of making a difference and finishing the story, of realizing the destiny of a Church which perhaps you actually did not choose but rather one in which GOD chose YOU to live out your destiny.

You are man, configured to the same physical body as Jesus Christ who gave Himself up for His Bride, the Church, to present to Himself a "spotless bride, holy, immaculate." (Ephesians 5) Likewise, stamped in your very body, is the calling of every male in the Church; to give himself up for the Bride,the Church, to help "present a spotless Bride, holy and immaculate."
Ours is a calling not to go in search of a ready-made Bride that is ALREADY holy and immaculate, ready made for us, but to MAKE her holy ourselves through the gifts that we have been given.
I believe that this example will be far more valuable to your children then even the most perfect Liturgy, catechetical program, etc. that might be found in a Church other than the one that you have been serving.

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB.,MA.

Father Loya,

Christos Voskrese!

Thanks for all of the work you do, especially your efforts in evangelization.

One item that I think you overlooked in your last post is the aspect of inclusive language.

Also, the absence of many services (i.e. Vespers, Matins, etc.) is something that has to be addressed by our church as well. I'll share a brief and recent story with you. Since I couldn't find a Greek Catholic Church anywhere that celebrated The Great Canon of St. Andrew during the first week of the Great Fast, I attended an OCA parish for it. The priest came up to me before it started to welcome me and also to see what my story was. I told him I was Greek Catholic and he asked me, not in a rude way, why I was going there that night and not to my parish. When I told him that there wasn't a Greek Catholic parish that celebrated what we were about to, the look on his face was priceless. He looked at me like I told him that I believed in the Easter Bunny. He said, are you sure, I told him yes I was positive. He just shook his head and mumbled (not in a mean way but in disbelief) as he walked back to get vested. It can't be ignored that 90%+ of our parishes do not celebrate Vespers and Matins and as far as I know 100% didn't celebrate the Great Canon during the first week of the Great Fast.

Monomakh

Father! Bless!

Thank you for your post! How very much I appreciate your insight. Much truth spoken!

My husband has sacrificed for me (and visa versa) and the process has been one of LONG SUFFERING! But, the sacrifices/sufferings have been redemptive. He and I have been "rewarded". I do believe what you are saying. We must be willing to stay for the long haul. After all, Love is all about sticking it out through good times and especially the bad times!

When I mentioned to one of the ladies at our Church that I am struggling with the New DL, she told me, "We NEED YOU PEOPLE, you cannot leave. You are our hope!"

The ECC is the BEST place for me and my family. I know it, but I am so discouraged with the new DL.

Can't we do more than write letters to Rome?

Bless Father,

Everything you have stated here has swirled inside my head for many months--perhaps years. Yes, it has been very painful in many ways and there are still remnants of guilt concerning the possibility that my discernment is not correct! Do I have a properly formed conscience?!?

There came an awakening of sorts for me when I began to see how much sense it made to accept the first seven ecumenical councils--that there was no need to further define the mysteries of our holy catholic and apostolic faith--even if pushed by protestantism. Furthermore, I saw, in many instances, the faith of our Eastern Catholic Church directly in line with the Orthodox Church--but we were forced to not talk about some Roman Catholic understandings because it was "not really how we think".
This dichotomy and identity crisis began to wear on me. I began to understand my true patrimony as the Orthodox Church and no longer saw our Church as a bridge to the schism--in fact I saw our Church as an impediment to reunification. The more I studied, the more I read the Early Church Fathers, the more I saw the Eastern Orthodox Church. Then I read a book called "We Are All Schismatics" by Archbishop Zoghby and I was able to assimilate and understand the generations of pain and animosity caused by the tragic schism.

Suddenly I was faced with the RDL! Without going into detail I will only say that I witnessed some real horror stories in the Roman Catholic Church that began with inclusive language and a revisionist mindset and ended with new age voodoo!

I lost my peace. I cannot pray a neutralized Liturgy. What sense is it to be angry every time I recite the Creed?!? Do I go to confession every day? My anger would spill over into my daily attitude. It upset my wife. I spoke to three different priests including my spiritual father and confessor. I cannot find my peace when I pray this neutralized inclusivist Liturgy.

I understand that there will be areas of concern in any Church. But I do not believe that the Orthodox Church will once again attempt to neutralize the Liturgy as the SCOBA attempted to do in the late 90's. I can deal with an imperfect Church, but I cannot deal with the loss of my peace during the holy Liturgy. The promulgation was a very sad day for me.

Kissing your right hand,
Recluse

It is the schism itself that prompts that habit of mind. There is a going away that is required of us, not just those who leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy, but for those who leave the Orthodox Church and come into communion with the pope, and some of those stories would rip your heart out. It is not a simple thing as long as there is no communion at all and it tears at the very fabric of our lives, and know it consciously or not, we are all, Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, diminished on account of the rending.

But there are those of us who will come and go and the best thing for the rest of us to do is to encourage them, and welcome them and beg them to try not to become something they were not in the first place, because with or without a public renunciation, the pressures will be there to "convert" no matter which direction one chooses.

It is very difficult to cross the de facto line of the schism and not reject that place from which we came. I have yet to see it happen. I am the only one I know personally who might have a shot at it, but even then, I cannot be sure that I would not hear the cock crowing in my own life. There are probably others but their voices are not apparent to me.

Mary

Ebed Melech


As well you should, because there are indeed many problems in Orthodoxy.

Really I think we are both in our own ways in troubled waters (nominalism, secularism, people leaving for Protestantism, etc.), which is why reconciliation if it could ever be achieved would I hope among other things would be a re-invigorating force for both churches to help overcome our mutual definincies. I believe it will happen at some point, but still may be a long way off.

At the personal level I think we at various times come to forks in the road, where we find for different reasons the situations we are in just aren't working. The decision must be made to plow ahead (and whether we have the strength to do so), or if it's better just to change course. This can be something we face and struggle with in terms of moving to a parish across town in the same diocese, in another jurisdiction or another communion altogether. I can only speak for myself personally and say that I think what comes to the fore when struggling with something like this are the more immediate and personal issues, and that some of the bigger picture stuff tends to take a back seat. All of it must be weighed though.

Whatever we do the change should not I think be out of bitterness, spite or rejection; because those things will likely carry over. What I find troubling about elijahmaria's story is that she is being asked to reject things and not affirm things, where it seems to me someone who is hypothetically entering a church should be encouraged to retain that which positively shaped their previous faith life.

What both churches certainly can use are people who are sympathetic to the other side, and that can bear its own fruit. The first step to healing the schism is healing it in ourselves.

Beatifully said!

Or as Merton once said, "to reconcile all worlds within himself". (In context, he was referring to all Christian worlds...a sad but necessary distinction with him.)

Your words ring so true. When one "converts" to the "other side", one sometimes tends to carry a prejudice. I will make a concerted effort to always embrace my Eastern and Latin Catholic brothers and sisters with love, charity and understanding.

AMM,

first off, good post.

Secondly, I too think that it will be a long way off. Even though the Pope continues to tell us to work towards unity, there are many things in this revision that don't work towards unity, in fact it moves us further from our Orthodox brethern as well as our Greek Catholic brethern. This is a shame.

Furthermore, the Byzantine Church cannot bring itself to even use the word Orthodox in the liturgy. There are supporters of the revision who have posted on this board that there are still too many ill feelings out there and that using the word Orthodox would 'offend' too many people in the Byzantine Church.

Unfortunately, unity does seem to be way down the road.

Monomakh

>Furthermore, the Byzantine Church cannot bring itself to even use the word Orthodox in the liturgy.

I feel the need to correct these stereotypes again. It is used in my parish. There is hope if you want to look for it.

Are you a member of the Byzantine Church of America or UGCC or Melkite?

It is not in the new liturgy books for the BCA. The UGCC, Melkites, and Romanian all use the word.


Monomakh

Christ is Risen!


Fr. Loya,

I think the razing must apply to the RDL as well. In reading the foreward or introduction (I don't remember which it is because I don't have the new book in front of me at the moment), it says something about making the Liturgy relevant to modern Americans. That is one of the first principles of the RDL--and a bad one at that. Fr. Taft set forth this same principle:


When the expert and those in authority want to make Christianity a viable lifestyle so that it can survive--they have missed the heart of the Gospel which you preach, which has been passed down through the ages. They have ceased to be custodians of the faith and become its "reformers".

While I appreciate modern Amercian democracy and the benefits which I have over those of my grandparents who came from old country, nonetheless, I also see the loss of faith (which I myself had experienced as a young man and which still plagues many of my own siblings and cousins--well over a hundred on my mother's Rusyn side).

Pope Benedict knows that there exists in our times a clash of the titans of epic proportions--it is between modernity, which rejects logos and the Logos, and the Church which is rising from her sleep in one of the most crtical times in her history. See his Regensburg lecture.

Islam will not now let us ignore this clash. It was with the reflection on the difference between Islam and Christiantity that the Pope began that lecture in Regensburg. Furthermore, it strikes me as terribly significant that Benedict would allow Soloviev's Tale of the AntiChrist as part of his Lenten retreat.

Those who have fashioned, and are demanding obedience to the RDL, for whatever reason, don't see what Benedict sees, and won't be led by him. The greatest sign of this, as I see it, is the willingness to change the ancient Symbol, which represents the Faith of the Fathers, to comport with the modern academic world, which scoffs at Christ and His Church. In the secular world, those who have demanded a change in our language and enforced it by bullying and not without causing harm, have given us any number of other evils. It is time that the Church, not just in her faithful, but in her leadership, in her Bishops and theologians, see the modern world for what it is and hold their ground. The compromise of the RDL, however, does not give those of us with young familes much encouragement. If the the faithful are going to convert the secular world to Christ and His Church, and maintain our own faith in it, then we deserve, and have every right to demand, a liturgy and a liturgical life that will sustain us in the battle with the secular world.

Thank you for your own efforts and leadership.

lm

BCA.

And pray for the day when you can once again join them in communion...

From the very beginning, there were some Christians who were called to be martyrs and others who were not.

You are a seeker, a soul who seeks to be set on fire for God...eh? So you have been looking for that place of inner warmth, interior homecoming, for a long time. You may or may not find it where you are going. You may find something else even more important in your life.

So you are much more than just a branch in need of pruning, expendable. You are a soul in need. Seek what you need.

On the way, given some of what you've said here, be open to change.

I think that there is a change coming inside of Orthodoxy that is going to require some pretty steady sea legs. I think that was made pretty clear at the recent meeting in Belgrade. Surely the same can be said for the papal Church but you are not headed there so that is not my focus here.

One of the things that I have noticed is that in the white papers in preparation for the Belgrade meeting, the question was raised, by an Orthodox writer, concerning the Pentarchy in the first thousand years. The question was whether or not there was real primatial power and authority in the patriarchs.

The Orthodox answer was yes, there was real primatial power, exercised directly...with the implication being that now it is exercised indirectly. The follow-up question was, of course, if there was real primatial power and authority, then was there not real primatial power and authority for the first among equals, beyond some honorific. The answer was some mumbling...but not a resounding 'no' as I had expected to hear. That small concession is monumental in the whole discussion of the Petrine Ministry. Keep an eye on all of that and an open mind.

Also pick up and read, if you have not already, Bishop Hilarion's "The Mystery of Faith." Look particularly at the sections that deal with original sin and Baptism for the remission of original sin. You may possibly hear there is no such thing in Orthodoxy. You may also hear that there is no language of propitiation and atonement in the hospital for souls, but there is. Except for a few pages, I could teach any Latin rite child from Bishop Hilarion's extended catechism.

The eternal priesthood and powers of the priesthood are also denied by some Orthodox clergy, laity and hierarchs. I was in a protracted public discussion with a dear friend, an Orthodox monk, over this issue. I insisted that there were Orthodox who did in fact teach the eternal priesthood and powers of the priesthood and he claimed that was not so. He took it to his Metropolitan and came back telling me that my instincts were correct according to his bishop. And he did it publicly. That took immense courage, and a very open mind and heart.

These are the things that you will encounter from time to time. Be patient. Keep an open mind.

I have a yahoo list called Irenikon. There are Orthodox and Catholics faithful there and several members of the clergy from both confessions who are active on the list. You are welcome to look us up and join. It might help you in small ways.

God keep you strong.

Mary

There is, and fortunately it is readily available in various sources - the quotes of church father's, the decrees of Orthodox synods and Orthodox catechisms printed at various times.

There is unfortunately a sub-section of Orthodoxy (not Bishop Hilarion in my opinion) who specialize in caricaturizing western theology instead of engaging in dealing with the true differences. You will often see printed rather insane things like "we don't believe in Original Sin" or "you can't find the word's satisfaction used in the East in regards to the Atonement", etc. etc. Just look for any combination of the words Augustine-Anselm-Aquinas-Original-Sin-Satisfaction-Atonement and you probably know what you're in store for. Some of this is produced by virulently anti-western Orthodox natives, and some to cater to the Protestant convert (or potential convert) crowd or has been appropriated and reproduced by them. Some of the criticisms published about the film the Passion for instance were just ridiculous. I said fortunately above, because one can go back and point out these things are most certainly present.

This deliberate mis-characterization of what the west believes I think is actually quite problematic, though not always overtly so. Not only because it promotes an atmosphere of opposition (i.e. "we know what we believe, because we know what the west believes is wrong"), but is fundamentally in its own way un-catholic because it is completely singular in its outlook. Particularism and anti-Catholicism can unfortunately for some be a few of the seminal features of Orthodox belief. Conversely however I'm sure there are Roman Catholics out there who still view Orthodoxy or Eastern theology in basically the same way.

AMEN! Wow...are you ever on a role.

Yes, yes, yes to everything you have said here. In fact I have often said that some Orthodox who embrace an anti-Catholic position on a number of issues are at risk of denying even elements that are also fundamental to Orthodoxy (such as the need for a unified magisterium, without necessarily embracing all of the particular elements of how it functions in a Catholic context).

And AMEN to both your posts, Gordon and Andrew!

Andrew, that was an excellent post and everything you said is so very, very true.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

P.S. I don't know why 'Recluse' has to say farewell just because he is becoming Orthodox?!? This is one of the most active, intellectual, spiritually mature, compassionate, friendly and interesting forums involving the East. I have yet to find an Orthodox forum that comes even close to it.

Yes, that is the real risk and what I meant by saying it can be dangerously un-catholic. The oppositional mentality can show up in all sorts of guises though. I believe based on what I've read here and heard elsewhere for instance, that what Monomakh is saying likely has a good deal of truth.

This has probably somewhat strayed. I would again say I think the issues we are talking about are important, but to me are kind of the bigger picture things that tend to be of secondary importance. Our lives as Orthodox and Catholic Christians are primarily liturgical, and the bulk of our active faith is in our own parish, and our first priority is the care and upbringing of our children. I think it's these more practical and tangible things that are the real driving forces behind or decisions of where we need to be.

The reality unfortunately is we're going to be separated from somebody at some level because of the situation the churches are in. That is even if we are able to affirm nearly everything about those we are separated from. Each person has to negotiate why and how they line up the way they do. It's not always black and white. There are clearly Orthodox people who privately have devotions to post schism Catholic saints. Bishop Zoghby says he only recognizes the Papacy as it existed in the first millennium. There are members of the Church of England who actually accept everything about the Papacy aside from its declaration that their orders are not valid. There are many such curious situations I'm sure. We all have to find our own way to navigate things.


Alithos Anesti!

What did Father Seraphim call some of it? The 'correctness disease'? I think so.

But it is not just some marginal element in Orthodoxy that takes the "particularist" positions. I do not fault my pastor here at all for the requirements that he laid at my feet. I understand him and I know he understands me. But he laid out the lines of the schism as he and his bishop see them and he said if I want to cross over into communion then I must really and truly cross over. I do not think that is unreasonable.

It's tough to pin down any one or two "lines" of particularist thought or teaching in Orthodoxy, and it reaches well into the hierarchy now in this country, in the smaller jurisdictions.

The Greeks are pretty predictably going to say nix to papal infallibility and that's about it for the big stuff. I know where I could go today to be received into Orthodoxy pretty much as I am...but then I would have to come home and look Father in eye. I can't do that. He would know my heart. Besides I can't keep my mouth shut long enough to "pass."

ROCOR and the OCA are going to be very tough jurisdictions to convince, under some possible threat of renewed communion with the Catholic Church, that there's not a world of difference between us, and it will take time and great patience to influence hearts and minds.

In the meantime, as you say, there are all those pastoral considerations and that is where we need to be on hand for one another in mutual understanding, respect and love.

Thanks so much for the things you are saying in this thread.

Mary

Many years! Welcome! Congratulations!

Indigo,

He is Truly Risen!

May Christ continue to be your Light!

In ICXC,

Gordo

I believe he called it, "the super-correctness disease".

This thread has indeed been beneficial. I think the title is misleading--I will not be saying farewell to the forum--but in a sense I will be saying farewell to communion with a Church that I love. I feel I have been betrayed by this Church. I have been thinking very hard about my reasons for leaving. Mary is correct. I have encountered very cold and hard hearted Orthodox Christians who carry a terrible prejudice for the Catholic Church. I have also seen the same attitude from Catholics toward Orthodoxy--it is the brutality of the schism. I have heard Orthodox priests deny the Western understanding of original sin and tell me there is no such thing as "once a priest always a priest"--that holy orders can be removed from a priest.

My point here is that both Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, are full of imperfect sinners and various prejudices and opinions. So I am forced to ask myself, why must I leave? Many of you are going to jump down my throat, but I believe the reason is because of inclusive language! Let me explain.

I am not a Church hopper. I would be able to deal with various abuses in the Church, whether I was Catholic or Orthodox. I am a fighter, and I would stay and fight for the truth. However, I am scandalized by inclusive language--my peace has been obliterated.

This has been an intentional and methodical agenda in the Ruthenian Catholic Church. From what I see, the nuns from Mt St Macrina have already neutralized the Triodion (even including one example of vertical inclusive language) and the Matins books. Last night I discovered a matins paperback that I kept from pilgrimage 2004 and it is neutralized--it even uses the phrase "He loves us all". The Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is neutralized and the revision of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts will soon be released in a neutralized version. I am expecting the older versions of the Pentacostarion, Festal Menaion, and Vespers books to be neutralized very soon. At the risk of sounding paranoid, this seems like an intentional process to ease us into a complete neutralization of all Church Liturgies and prayers. In my eyes, it is blasphemy. There is something diabolical and radical about the whole scenario. My heart cries out in agony.

And so to put it simply, I seem to be left with the following choice:

Be a part of the Orthodox Church, which is imperfect, but is apostolic with sufficient grace and valid sacraments and a Traditional Liturgy and prayers in the language of our Fathers.

or

Be a part of the Ruthenian Catholic Church, which is imperfect, but is apostilic with sufficient grace and valid sacraments and a neurtalized Liturgy and prayers in the modern language of the secular politically correct humanistic radical feminists.

The first choice gives me peace--the second choice does not.


There has been such a vast effort to neutralize our Church, that I believe it will take many, many years, if ever, to rid it of this worldly virus--and I cannot take the chance of raising my child in such an atmosphere. If the Liturgy had not been neutralized, I surely would have stayed and fought against the other errors in the revision (my Church was one that has been reduced). But inclusive language has robbed me of my peace.

And that is where I stand.

The most wretched of all sinners,
Recluse

I don't know if this little story will make a difference, or if it is even relevant, but I thought that I needed to share it:

On Lazarus Saturday, my parish was blessed to have a spiritual retreat with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware--perhaps the greatest Orthodox theologian of modern times, and perhaps a future saint.

During the Question and Answer period, a Greek Orthodox man who had travelled from Boston for this retreat, dared ask His Eminence: "why, in some translations of the Creed, do we say "for us men"...that is so unfair...I have a wife and daughters and I have to believe that Jesus died for them too!"

His Eminence's answer was simple: He started it by saying: "AHHHH, the poverty of the English language". He simply concluded by saying that language was never meant to hurt anyone. He did not entertain the accusation, nor did he insult the man..

Post Script by me: for what it is worth, the new Greek Orthodox Archdiocese translation has taken out 'for us men' in favor of 'for us'.... the poverty of the English language, in practice and indeed.

In Christ,
Alice

And this is precisely why Recluse needs to look more carefully at the communion he is entering. Liturgical revamping can come at any time, any place and is no respecter of East or West. As I've said before and will say again, the issue here is of earthly ideologies having currency in the mainstream and these being allowed to pass into the Church unchallenged. There is such a thing as bad incultration.

All of this of course reminds me of my freshman year in college two decades or so ago. PC was the big concern. It was being fought and books were written by the likes of Alan Bloom and Dinesh D'Souza in defense of natural language. Academia still capitulated to the thought/language cops. One of the booty prizes of the PCers is that they've run amok in the business world and now, the Church, with anemic resistance from the old guard. Our churchmen and liturgists can smugly talk of "anti-intellectual" leanings among those who criticize the secular ideology that continues to ravage the Church because, well, they won. You can afford to be smug and irritating when you're in control and have the great weight of modernity on your side. The revolution in the Ruthenian Church looks to me, an outsider, like the one I saw in the late 80s at the university. A few have managed to impose their will on the many -- composed mainly of the unsuspecting or indifferent -- and can now talk about how charitable and intellectual they are with one another. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth though of the ordinary man in the pew. It also highlights how arrogance has a way of blinding men to the painfully obvious.

I see nothing in the Orthodox faith to prevent the same tragic destruction from taking place and no one has explained how the Greek innovation will not spread. There as here, they suffer from clericalism, a point emphasized repeatedly in Fr. Schmemann's book on the Eucharist. In fact, the RDL mimics the same behaviors and attitudes described by Fr. in his discussion on the scholastic influences in Eastern worship.

Recluse is opting for a very short term solution to a problem. I've tried to read all of his posts, but I don't remember whether he has a beef with certain Catholic doctrines. This is one thing. But if it's only about liturgy, then I fear he's setting himself up for some heartbreak in the near future.

It has nothing to do with any "poverty of the English language." (And shame on Bishop Kalistos, an Englishman, for speaking thus!) That gentleman who asked the question was merely showing his own ignorance of the language, and more significantly, how diabolically successful the feminists have been in altering perceptions of what the word man means. Where is the Teaching Church? Why is it capitulating to the Church's enemies?

And why do Greeks especially enjoy insulting the English language?

One can only scratch the head in wonderment at the reason why words such as men, man, and mankind suddenly became taboo in some circles.

Poverty indeed!

P.s--I was not aware that the Greek Orthodox Church has neutralized the Creed. Do you have any evidence of this?

edit: I beg your pardon Alice. I see that you are Greek Orthodox. It is unfortunate that they have tampered with the Creed also.

Bingo!

I am not very keen on doctrines that were defined after the first seven ecumenical councils--though I have been able to keep an open mind about "development of doctrine".

I have already explained about the failed inclusive experiment with the S.C.O.B.A.

Yes Sultan. It is quite possible that the OCA or ROC/ROCOR, or the Serbian Orthodox Church, etc., will fall into the gross modernist radical feminist error of inclusive language--but if I were a betting man, I would not place a bet on it.

I am saddened to see that the Greeks tampered with the Creed.

I appreciate what you are saying. I will say, however, that if it is true that that there is nothing stopping any church from adopting inadvisable (or plainly wrong) teachings and practices, then it means that vigilance of the laity is the only answer. It also means, for example, that should one's church fall into error to such a degree that the faith is impaired, that the laity should have the right and responsibility to take a walk. Let's say, hypothetically, that the Antiochian Orthodox Church (of which I am a member) were to universally adopt some abberant practice or teaching and it was clear that this was set. Well, in that case, I would find myself going over to the OCA or ROCOR or some other Church. There is no guarantee that any particular church, Roman, Orthodox, etc. will not fall into error. The infallibility of the Church only applies to the Church as a whole and if things get too bad, then it will mean that the faithful remnant will have to search each other out and bond together.

Joe

Several weeks ago, I attended a Greek Orthodox liturgy and "for us and our salvation" was spoken. I thought this was rather odd and almost posted a question about it here.

Joe

Dear Recluse,

I do understand your agony. So, you are not alone in your concerns. I would like to share with you some of my thoughts.

I have come to the point in my life, realizing this war against the Faith is far from over. It is going to take every bit of perseverance we have to sustain the battle ahead. I have thought about every option with regaurd to Churches, and none suffice. No choice seems to be "right". I have come to know I have NO HOME here on this Earth. Yes, I do believe in Holy Mother Church. I accept that I will live a life of long suffering awaiting the restoration of Mother Church. I don�t believe I will ever see the restoration. Oh, but what glory the restoration will be!!! I will offer my life, offering up my pain, hurt, and joy to this end of restoration. I especially beg forgiveness for the abuses and blasphemies that are taking place.

Some have said that the Church is suffering Her passion. I cannot separate myself from her at this desperate hour. It takes strong Faith to look at the Church today and see a Divine Institution. Daily I fight. My faith is questioned. But always I come back to restoration (a Resurrection of sorts) of Holy Mother Church.

"You must fight energetically, since you know very well what great wounds the undefiled Spouse of Christ Jesus has suffered, and how vigorous is the destructive attack of Her enemies." -His Holiness, Venerable Pope Pius IX

Recluse, I do understand if God is leading you to Orthodoxy. It is a move I cannot ever imagine making. Not that I know the will of GOD for you, and I am not judging you. For the restoration will include the unity of East and West.

"This most unhappy war will end, when an emperor of Spanish origin will be elected who will in a wonderful manner be victorious through the sign of the Cross . . . He will restore the Church in Santa Sophia (in Constantinople), and all the earth shall enjoy peace and prosperity; and new cities will be erected in many places" - St. Bridget of Sweden.

Recluse, I am very concerned with the poison of inclusive language. I am struggling with it now. For now, I teach my children daily and trust GOD that will protect them. Don�t underestimate your influence on your child. Your example is vital. --- I believe the grass roots movement is instrumental in this war. Make your HOME a sanctuary and your child will be well armed for battle. Our homes, the domestic churches, are the boot camp, and how we instruct our children at home cannot be underestimated. You and your wife are the living examples and no inclusive language can conquer it.

Reculse, please remember to teach your child to pray for the restoration every night!

GOD be with you! Take courage!

Dear Gabriel,

His Eminence is NOT Greek! He is, however, a scholar that knows Greek very well. I believe his point was that in Greek there is one word, and it suffices. In English there are many different words to correspond to that one word, but each is slightly different than the other. This happens with any translations between ANY languages.

English is a beautiful and rich language, and one which Metropolitan Kallistos brings to new heights, I might say!

As far as the feminists, I have to agree...they are ridiculous, and the men who fall into their lies are equally ridiculous.

I couldn't help but turn to my friend (she was Irish Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy) when I heard that question, and roll my eyes! She responded to me in the same way!

(okay, okay, I know that wasn't very nice, but I couldn't help it)

In Christ,
Alice

There have been various English translations which are still floating around. I believe the one which will be the standard includes "for us men... etc.".

Fr. Anthony would be able to explain this best.

The common SCOBA translation, which was horrendous, was accepted by no one.

I will try to bring back home the newest 'official' Greek Archdiocesse version on Sunday if Father Anthony doesn't answer.

So far many of you, including Father Tom, are missing something vital to your salvation here.

I don't want to pick anyone out for censure, but I make an exception for Father Tom since I think he, as a priest, should be more careful with his words and ideas.

There has been a tendency throughout the Church and exemplified in the desert fathers that you remain in obedience to legitimate authority in all things but sin.

So that one should never so easily speak of hopping from one spiritual father to another, one parish to another, one jurisdiction to another, one Church to another, as in the case of moving from Orthodoxy to the Catholic Church or the other way around.

Moving from one thing to another so as to feel better, or because we have decided that something is flawed beyond repair in the Body, is all taken rather matter of factly in some of the posts here. Why, any reasonable person could hardly disagree. So I suppose you could number me among the unreasonable <smile>.

WE do not make the Church holy, even though Father Loya says we do. The Church says that the Body of Christ is holy. The Body of Chist is holy and we participate as members of the Body in humble obedience through faith, in hope, with charity.

Now you loose sight of that foundational truth over some "loss of peace" and you'll be off the path so far and so fast that it will take an act of God to get you back. Nobody has an inherent right to feel good on the Way of Perfection.

You may take that to the spiritual bank.

Mary

Well said Joe! I know this has already begun to happen with some Catholics, small scale and larger scale. Is this happening with the Orthodox too?

I'm not sure how to "come out" on this forum, so I figured this thread was a good starting point.

I, like Recluse, have been considering conversion to Orthodox. For the past two or three years I've been praying about it and talking to both Orthodox and Catholic friends and priests, etc. I had decided to make the switch some time ago, but didn't have the heart to leave my parish, because I love the people there. I've never felt comfortable in the Byzantine Catholic Church, and I've always felt my time here would be short. I knew in my heart in 1994 that some day I would be Orthodox. God has been calling me to this for a long time, and I've resisted. Like I said, I decided to convert in January of this year, and spoke with a priest and my family.

Then the Revised Divine Liturgy was promulgated.

But unlike so many of my brothers, I saw this as a reason to stick around a bit. I'm in cantor school, I've sung the RDL at the seminary, I'm familiar with it. I needed to help my parish make the adjustment. I like much of the RDL and find the pew books great resources. I'm not so keen on all the words, but I'm a linguist and will probably find problems with words no matter where I am.

In my heart, I believe everything the Orthodox Church teaches and holds True. How could I continue to remain in Communion with Rome if I no longer believe what Rome teaches? God will lead us where He wants us if we are open to His will. I woke up one day a month or so ago and knew the time had come to stop avoiding Orthodoxy.

I will be Chrismated Orthodox in 2 weeks.

I, like Recluse, ask for your prayers.

But I want to say something about all of this conversion stuff going on. By unhappy chance, God has chosen this time for me to become Orthodox. I say "unhappy chance" because I've had to make it very clear to everyone that I support the Catholic heirarchs in their revised Liturgy -- as a Catholic and a cantor (a representative of the Church), I must. My conversion has been a long time in coming and I know in my heart that I'm doing what is right for myself. I'm afraid that too many people are converting for the wrong reasons -- we joke (and sometimes not joke) about Latins who "flee Rome" going to the BCC to avoid the Novus Ordo; but those of us who "flee Rome" to avoid the RDL are no different.

Please don't think I'm pointing fingers at anyone, I just wanted to share my opinion on this. I've posted the same before if you look through my posts. It just hits a little closer to home now that I'm also leaving the BCC; though I look at it positively as "I'm joining the Holy Orthodox Church."

My loss of peace is no trivial matter. It is not about "feeling good"--it is about "not being angry at the revisionists every time I say the Creed". I respect your opinion Mary. Plain and simple, I will not, and cannot bear to be angry every time I recite the Creed. It is not fair to my wife or child---or myself. And I cannot help the feelings of anger. So if I can be in an Apostolic Church which has not tampered with the Creed or infected the Liturgy with worldly poison, then that is where I must be.

That is all.

Recluse

Yes. I have been avoiding the call for a couple of years now. But it was the RDL that has given me the extra little nudge. Unlike you, I think it is a travesty. But this is only my opinion. Blessings to you as you continue your journey towards eternity.

Alice,

It always bears repeating:


The plural of anthropos is the Greek word in the Creed. Anthropoi can refer to adult males, or men, women and children.
"Men" like anthropoi can mean only adult males, or men, women and children. Rather than showing any deficiency of the English language, it shows the richness in the meaning of "men".

I think it would be wrong to translate the Creed "for us human beings, he became a human being, because the Word became a male human being. To his Church, he has the relationship of bridegroom to bride. It is that relationship to which the mystery of marriage refers. It is the mystery of marriage which modernity rejects. Modernity does not recognize that our bodies reflect the Truth about Jesus Christ and His Church. To the extent that the revisionists have purposefully tinkered with the Creed, they have missed the point of the foundational sacrament and mystery, that is the sacrament and mystery which was "In the beginning." To the extent that the revisionists have haphazzardly tinkered with the Creed, they have unwittingly rejected the truth about marriage and the reason God made man, male and female.

In Christ,
lm

Dear Im,

I happen to know Greek fluently, and I would be content to recite the Creed just in the Greek, which I also know by heart, because it never changes.

Whenever I recite the English, (and because I don't like to follow texts), I end up in a cacophany of error. I learned it one way, as a child, and that is the way I like it and that is the way I generally recite it. However, over the years, my archdiocese has issued atleast three different translational versions, and they are often used at random by different churches. ARGH!

This generally doesn't bother us too much though, because in my Archdioces' Church, we are just SO happy to hear *anything* in English, that it doesn't really matter to us all that much on how accurate a translation is or not. LOL! I understand the matter of translation (not for the Creed, but in Liturgy) also involves the amount of syllables of a particular translated word which will fit in with the liturgical music.

Anyway, my point was: don't be so hard on Bishop Kallistos Ware. I am sure that a man of his distinguished background has good reason to say what he does. He is a living saint, much like the Pope and the previous Pope, who does not have it in his soul or heart to belittle anyone or anything.

Thanks.

In Christ,
Alice

I learned it with the archaic English before becoming Orthodox, and I still prefer the creed as used by the Antiochians which is similar. So I still trip over this, but am getting more used to the new way. The one thing I don't like is the use of the word "consubstantial" in place of "one in essence", but that's a small point.



In the ones I've been in they do both, so the creed will be recited in both Greek and English.


What would be nice is one common English translation across all the jurisdictions for things like the creed. Pie in the sky though I have think!

AMEN!

Lord have Mercy! Pray for the revisionist!

There is a difference of course between belittling and between pointing out the truth of the matter. Benedict is doing a wonderful job in refuting--and that very forcefully--the relativists.

They are all still men. And unless certain ones have spoken "ex cathedra," they, like the rest of us, should be reminded when they have missed the mark, because ideas have consequences as this thread is attesting to. So perhaps the Bishop was not feeling well that day.

How ironic. We have a common language in the United States and we get the Tower of Babel.

Although I don't know much Greek--I had a year and a half in college a long time ago--maybe sticking to the original isn't a bad idea. If we can use theotokos and anaphora, why not the entire Divine Liturgy?

The approved version of the creed is listed on the online chapel of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese at the following link: Official Creed of the GOA [goarch.org] .

It has been posted before in this section of the forum in PDF version.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Recluse,


I will pray for you and your discernment.I frankly hope that people like you will stay in the Metropolia, and help us orthodoxize our parishes. But I understand, I too, have considered moving from the Byzantine Catholic Church for the Orthodox, although for other reasons. Right now, I feel called to stay in union with Rome. I have a deep love for our Ruthenian Church.

I very much respect your decision. Please remain with us on the Forum, if you feel so inclined.


S'Bohom,

Lance

One more thing I might add, upon reading some of the other posts here. I noticed some people like the prayers in the older English.

I recently found a treasure, an older version of our Ruthenian Prayer book, which uses the traditional language.

I sometimes wonder if liturgists underestimate people's ability to read more dignified language.

I think they have also way overestimated how offended people might feel about so called non-inclusive language.

If I thought your loss of peace was trivial I would not be speaking to you at all about such things. It is quite high handed of me to intervene or interfere as much as I have thus far, so I must think there is good reason to express a caution. I must believe beyond all public posturing or positioning that you are in some danger of personal error.

You need to ask yourself if it is right to break communion with the Church of your Baptism over an uncontrolled passion, which is what your anger is by your own admission.

Do you really and honestly believe that any Church is going to "cure" you of anger which you refuse to get under control on your own?

Your departure should demonstrate far more control than you are exhibiting at the moment. If you cannot gain custody over the passion of anger here, you can't do it there, unless you have determined that you are in an un-holy Church, and must move to a place that is holy so that you may become holy. But that is not what you have been saying here.

There is a serious spiritual disconnect in your being at the moment. I think it is important and so I will point to it. The rest is your's.

Blessings always,

Mary

Mary,

I understand your concern. This isn't about church shopping or parish hopping, however. I was Melkite 12 years and struggled with serious doctrinal issues for several of those years before making a decision. Also, I realized that Orthodoxy has its own problems. In fact, I was quite happy with my parish and I still love my brethren there deeply.

The point I was making is that there is no guarantee that any individual church will never fall into error. If a church deviates to the point where it obscures the tradition or teaches false doctrine, then one might be obligated to leave (I say, 'might' because only each individual can decide this).

Joe

Domilsean,

God bless you and you certainly have my prayers.

Joe

Mary,

With all due respect, you are not recluse's spiritual mother. Recluse has already said that it is not simply anger over the liturgical revisions that is motivating him. I can tell you that the vast majority of those I've known who have switched from Catholicism to Orthodoxy or vice versa do so after a long period of pain and struggle. And I think that most of us who have made some kind of switch realize that we are not entering a utopia. This isn't an issue of self-control, but an issue of searching out one's conscience and doing what one feels one has to do.

Joe

Well said Joe. As always!

Thanks Andrew. For all here, this is an article that seems relevant and I found it interesting:

http://www.dneoca.org/articles/typology0197.html

A lot of good advice in there.

Godspeed to you recluse no matter your choice!

Passions sure are running deep on this thread! I *knew* that fools tread where angels fear!

I am sorry I gave the impression that His Eminence did not refute feminist inclusive sentiment. He infact, did in a most diplomatic and respectful way--but I don't remember his words exactly.

Feeling mischievous, I will throw a curve ball here about 'mankind'/'anthropous'---a more accurate word to those of us who speak Greek is *actually* :persons/people--anyone ready for yet another translation?!?! LOL!

(Personally, I think that 'humans' sounds like we are members of Star Fleet differentiating ourselves from Klingons and/or Vulcans! )

JUST teasing!

I just heard two Resurrection CD's in the car: (Eikona) in English and St. Vladimir's in English...both are heavenly and have made me feel spiritually touched and in a mood where nothing can make me despair--not a translation or an argument.

CHRIST IS RISEN! CHRISTOS VOSKRESE! CHRISTOS ANESTI!

Have a great day,
Alice