www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Male/Female Nurturer

Again, I would not want to envision a world in which women are entirely excluded from positions of leadership and authority.

Women are not supposed to be included in the body politic! Leadership and rulership are exclusively male domains.

Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morailty are indispensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness--these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...
And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle

The deep-seated roots of the "great mystery", the sacrament of love and life which began with Creation and Redemption and which has Christ the Bridegroom as its ultimate surety, have been lost in the modern way of looking at things. The "great mystery" is threatened in us and all around us.

IM:

I largely agree with what you're saying. However, I repeat that I see know basis for excluding women from holding positions of leadership and authority. Brother Ed, of course, is free to hold the opinion that women do not belong in places of leadership. However, I suspect that he cannot provide much of an argument based in Holy Scripture and the magisterial teachings of the Church to support that opinion.

Ryan

I have nothing against certain positions being filled by young and even married females, but when the babies come -- that is job # 1!

While speaking about employment in reference to the family, it is appropriate to emphasize how important and burdensome is the work women do within the family unit: that work should be acknowledged and deeply appreciated. The "toil" of a woman who, having given birth to a child, nourishes and cares for that child and devotes herself to its upbringing, particularly in the early years, is so great as to be comparable to any professional work. This ought to be clearly stated and upheld, no less than any other labour right.

The words of consent, then, express what is essential to the common good of the spouses, and they indicate what ought to be the common good of the future family. In order to bring this out, the Church asks the spouses if they are prepared to accept the children God grants them and to raise the children as Christians. This question calls to mind the common good of the future family unit, evoking the genealogy of persons which is part of the constitution of marriage and of the family itself. The question about children and their education is profoundly linked to marital consent, with its solemn promise of love, conjugal respect, and fidelity until death. The acceptance and education of children�two of the primary ends of the family�are conditioned by how that commitment will be fulfilled. Fatherhood and motherhood represent a responsibility which is not simply physical but spiritual in nature; indeed, through these realities there passes the genealogy of the person, which has its eternal beginning in God and which must lead back to him.

Yupper. Cro-magnon man said it!

Want an apology?

Sorry. None coming. They DO NOT BELONG IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP!!!!

Authority is vested in males. Women are nurturers.

I have nothing against certain positions being filled by young and even married females, but when the babies come -- that is job # 1!

The Catholic Church gives the lie to your assertion here, thank God.

Women have and do hold many positions of legitimate authority in the Church and in those positions have been strong leaders and gentle nurturers as well.

It's not what you say that is entirely false. It is the over-generalization that renders your position ludicrous.

Apparently you like the attention. Most women I know and admire put boys like you to work caring for others, or heavy manual labor. Helps tone down those raging hormones and reins in delusions of adequecy in males.

Mary

And this is why the Church is in the sad shape it is in. Personal opinion and feelings override what scripture teaches.

Fortunately it is not my opinion but the lived history of the living Body of Christ.

And your proof of this is Bishop...............uh, what was her name????

Women have and do hold many positions of legitimate authority in the Church and in those positions have been strong leaders and gentle nurturers as well.

Every covenant in the Holy Scriptures was made with a man as the covenantal head. Our Lord came to set up a KINGdom, not a queendom, i.e., a political state headed by a MALE! In fact, there is no evidence that God's desire for mankind's rulership ever was democracy. (mob rule). And in the eternal state, we will be members of the heavenly KINGdom.

One must be careful in differentiating between roles and abilities. If one's role is to lead, that in of itself does not diminish one's ability to nurture, just as if one's role is to nurture, it does not diminish one's ability to lead. Roles are ideals. Abilities reflect reality. We should strive for ideals whist at the same time, remain firmly grounded in reality. As an example, the ideal would be for Papa to be the breadwinner and Mama to stay home and raise the family, assisted by Baba who lives next door. Unfortunately, in some parts of the world, this is no longer feasible. Economic realities, lack of extended families and other mitigating circumstances have necessitated a reappraisal of the situation and adjustments made accordingly. This should not lessen our desire for what should be, but we cannot live in a dream world either.

Might I suggest a peace offering (flowers, chocolates and a credit card works wonderfully!)

However, I repeat that I see know basis for excluding women from holding positions of leadership and authority.

Let us clarify. Could you be more specific? Are you saying that you would be in agreement with ordaining women as priests and bishops?

But, since you have raised it, the Church never says that a woman is incapable of being a priest...So one can say, if one likes, that a woman has all the human capacities necessary to carry out priestly functions...

INTER INSIGNIORES
Declaration on the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood (15 October 1976)
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
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5. The Ministerial Priesthood In The Light Of The Mystery Of Christ

Having recalled the Church's norm and the basis thereof, it seems useful and opportune to illustrate this norm by showing the profound fittingness that theological reflection discovers between the proper nature of the sacrament of Order, with its specific reference to the mystery of Christ, and the fact that only men have been called to receive priestly ordination. It is not a question here of bringing forward a demonstrative argument, but of clarifying this teaching by the analogy of faith.

The Church's constant teaching, repeated and clarified by the Second Vatican Council and again recalled by the 1971 Synod of Bishops and by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in its Declaration of 24 June 1973, declares that the bishop or the priest, in the exercise of his ministry, does not act in his own name, "in persona propria:" he represents Christ, who acts through him: "the priest truly acts in the place of Christ", as Saint Cyprian already wrote in the third century.[15] It is this ability to represent Christ that Saint Paul considered as characteristic of his apostolic function (cf. 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14). The supreme expression of this representation is found in the altogether special form it assumes in the celebration of the Eucharist, which is the source and centre of the Church's unity, the sacrificial meal in which the People of God are associated in the sacrifice of Christ: the priest, who alone has the power to perform it, then acts not only through the effective power conferred on him by Christ, but "in persona Christi,"[16] taking the role of Christ, to the point of being his very image, when he pronounces the words of consecration.[17]

The Christian priesthood is therefore of a sacramental nature: the priest is a sign, the supernatural effectiveness of which comes from the ordination received, but a sign that must be perceptible[18] and which the faithful must be able to recognize with ease. The whole sacramental economy is in fact based upon natural signs, on symbols imprinted upon the human psychology: "Sacramental signs", says Saint Thomas, "represent what they signify by natural resemblance".[19] The same natural resemblance is required for persons as for things: when Christ's role in the Eucharist is to be expressed sacramentally, there would not be this "natural resemblance" which must exist between Christ and his minister if the role of Christ were not taken by a man: in such a case it would be difficult to see in the minister the image of Christ. For Christ himself was and remains a man.

Christ is of course the firstborn of all humanity, of women as well as men: the unity which he re-established after sin is such that there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all are one in Christ Jesus (cf. Gal 3:28). Nevertheless, the Incarnation of the Word took place according to the male sex: this is indeed a question of fact, and this fact, while not implying an alleged natural superiority of man over woman, cannot be disassociated from the economy of salvation: it is, indeed, in harmony with the entirety of God's plan as God himself has revealed it, and of which the mystery of the Covenant is the nucleus.

For the salvation offered by God to men and women, the union with him to which they are called�in short, the Covenant�took on, from the Old Testament Prophets onwards, the privileged form of a nuptial mystery: for God the Chosen People is seen as his ardently loved spouse. Both Jewish and Christian tradition has discovered the depth of this intimacy of love by reading and rereading the Song of Songs; the divine Bridegroom will remain faithful even when the Bride betrays his love, when Israel is unfaithful to God (cf. Hos 1-3; Jer 2). When the "fullness of time" (Gal 4:4) comes, the Word, the Son of God, takes on flesh in order to establish and seal the new and eternal Covenant in his blood, which will be shed for many so that sins may be forgiven. His death will gather together again the scattered children of God; from his pierced side will be born the Church, as Eve was born from Adam's side. At that time there is fully and eternally accomplished the nuptial mystery proclaimed and hymned in the Old Testament: Christ is the Bridegroom; the Church is his bride, whom he loves because he has gained her by his blood and made her glorious, holy and without blemish, and henceforth he is inseparable from her. This nuptial theme which is developed from the Letters of Saint Paul onwards (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22- 23) to the writings of Saint John (cf. especially Jn 3:29; Rev 19:7,9), is present also in the Synoptic Gospels: the Bridegroom's friends must not fast as long as he is with them (cf. Mk 2:19); the Kingdom of Heaven is like a king who gave a feast for his son's wedding (cf. Mt 22:1-14). It is through this Scriptural language, all interwoven with symbols, and which expresses and affects man and woman in their profound identity, that there is revealed to us the mystery of God and Christ, a mystery which of itself is unfathomable.

That is why we can never ignore the fact that Christ is a man. And therefore, unless one is to disregard the importance of this symbolism for the economy of Revelation, it must be admitted that, in actions which demand the character of ordination and in which Christ himself, the author of the Covenant, the Bridegroom and Head of the Church, is represented, exercising his ministry of salvation which is in the highest degree the case of the Eucharist�his role (this is the original sense of the word "persona") must be taken by a man. This does not stem from any personal superiority of the latter in the order of values, but only from a difference of fact on the level of functions and service.

If I am quoting out of context, please let me know. But I am not certain what you meant here. The Church certainly has given us reasons why women cannot be ordained.

So a woman has all the natural capacities of being a priest, except for the fact that she is not a man.

Recluse:

I was speaking of roles in government and society; not in the Church.

Ryan

And now the Church is following society in obfuscating that fundamental truth and is inviting that obfuscation into the statement of what the church believes--what each of us is supposed to believe if we are to be in union with Rome. Well this new Creed does reflect quite well the obfuscation of Genesis by the modern world and Catholics' rejection of Human Vitae by the modern Church.

But that is an enormous exception, so much so that I would not call it an exception.

So a woman has all the natural capacities of being a priest

Maybe we just have the same universal father!

It was the juxtaposition of that phrase above, with the "except" that causes the problem. In what sense do you speak of "natural capacities?" Obviously, a woman has no natural capacity to father children. And I agree that that is not a defect.

Using "natural capacites" in the manner in which you use it, seems to emphasize the wrong point because it actually ignores the most natural difference while emphasizing talents which every decent man knows a woman has more. The priesthood, however, as we can all attest to, has very little to do with natural capacites in the sense in which you speak.

Yes to the latter and I did not belabor the obvious initially.

Add a day at the spa -- pedicure, manicure, facial, massage -- and all will be forgotten.

I dunno, I kind of like "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Gen 3:16 and "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord" Eph 5:22. Kind of puts things in proper perspective, dontcha think?

Alexandr