www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What would you say if . . .

When my daughter attended a Catholic girl's high school, her Bible Studies teacher told the students that they should NOT take the gospels literally.

It seems that there may be alot of this going on in the American RC church. I know of a few other stories like Bob's, some even from RC priests who are dismayed by their fellow clergy.

All this is sadly doing is totally confusing the laity in a confusing era where few are well catechized in either the Orthodox or the Catholic faith.

Alice

Alice,

The worst place for all of this is the typical Catholic university. There are even studies out that show that for any given graduating class at a Catholic university, the percentage of those who hold to their faith is significantly lower than the percentage when they were freshmen. I personally know of Jesuit priests who were Atheists and it was not uncommon to hear such things in homilies as "Jesus didn't come to do magic tricks with bread and wine, but to help us be a more inclusive, liberating community where all are equal, black or white, gay or staight, etc. etc. etc." Explicitly denials of the sacred character of the eucharist right in the Mass itself. It was very disconcerting. I plan on sending my kids to state schools.

Joe

Joe:

Consider University of St. Thomas in Houston and Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida as alternatives to the "typical Catholic university." At these two schools I doubt you'll encounter the sort of problems you've mentioned.

Ryan

Ryan,

Yes, very true. There are a handful of Catholic universities that are still traditionally Catholic and Christian and that provide a quality liberal arts education.

Joe

This kind of nonsense has really infected the church, and having a few more traditional bishops in place is not going to change it overnight.

I know of a Roman Catholic parish in my area that used one of Marcus Borg's books for their confirmation class (these were adolescents). it was THE primary text.

A friend of mine who is on the parish council, and had a son in the class.

I asked him, "Do you know about Borg? He does not believe in the divinity of Christ, in the resurrection, the Virgin birth, and is agnostic about the after life?"

He was alarmed, and brought it up at the next parish council meeting. They pretty much told him "tough, that's the text we are using."

I told another friend who goes there about the book, and he did not seem to think it was all that big a deal. He does not have kids.

I told him that if it were me, I would pull my kid out of the class and leave that church. I would talk to the priest about it.

Also, if I was in the Latin Church, I think I would write the bishop about it.

Are people complaining about these heresies to the Bishops? If the Bishops don't care, can't they complain directly to the Pope?

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't think that those who are catechised and clear headed enough to know heresy when they hear it, need to speak out!

Even though I am Orthodox, I still feel guilty that I did not complain to the Sister/Principal of my daughter's high school about her Bible Studies teacher saying that the gospels should not be taken literally. I was new to the school, and a different faith, and I didn't want to muddy the waters for my daughter and have her new school think that I was one of the parents that complain about everything.

Alice

I have a question that is sincerely asked. Your reference to the book by Borq raised questions that many of the posts here raise.

Does the fact that Borq does not believe the things you listed mean that his books are all heresy?

Should we only read and use books that are written by people who believe all the right things?

I know nothing about this particular author. But as to the larger question, I believe that if a writer espouses heretical doctrines, it is likely that his books will reflect that thinking. While one might like to discuss them in a study group composed of (at least some) well-formed adults, it is highly inappropriate for such materials to be used to catechize our young people. That's my view.
Again, when a person has a firm grasp on the Church's teaching it may be fine to explore what someone who is shakey has to say, but as for me, life is too short.

I totally agree, Michael. Children and teens are generally not of the intellectual calaber of a fully catechised person.

Alice

ALICE:

I asked my confessor, a highly placed cleric in this diocese, about writing to the bishop and even to Rome and he told me to tread carefully because a layman could be excommunicated for complaining about this sort of thing, even if he were proven to be correct.

As an aside, I just finished a book "The Keys of This Blood" by Malachi Martin, an ex-Jesuit. He goes into great detail about the problems facing the Latin Church--and the whole Catholic Church--during the pontificate of JPII. He writes in 1990 so the material has no later additions. However, he points out that there are two views of ecclesiology competing in the Catholic Church and their struggle is what cause this sort of thing to go unchallenged. The firt is the traditional view that the Pope holds the absolute power and universal jurisdiction over all bishops, priests, etc. The second view sees the Church as a more democratic institution where each bishop is free to pay lip service and go his own way with little or no fear of being challenged by Rome. Unfortunately, Martin suggests that this second view is becoming more common and will eventually lead to the uttter destruction of the institution. In any event there are more seminaries, monasteries, religious orders, bishops, and other groups within the Catholic Church who seem to be doing their own thing today because of the spread of this second view of what the Church is and what it should be.

In light of this and what I've experienced on the ground, my Orthodox brethren have no fear of Papal universla jurisdiction because it may exist on paper but in practice seems to have little practical application or meaning in the past 40 years. The EP and MP synods have more control over their bishops than Rome seems to have.

BOB

Dear Bob,

I had realized that the Bishops have more control here than the Pope, and that they are somewhat independent.

Did this start after Vatican II? Was there an official declaration of decentralization of power?

Do these many problems exist in other countries?

Americans tend to have a 'no one tells us what to do' kind of mentality...and it even manifests itself in various ways in American Orthodoxy as well.

This is also a country that has found itself in a period of great ethical and moral polarization, and therefore, such will manifest itself in churches as well. Orthodoxy has not been completely free of it, it has just been a bit more subtle as we are very small in numbers, voice, and influence on the American landscape anyway.



I am *shocked* that one could fear excommunication for questioning a cleric's views as heresy and bringing it to light, yet those who preach heresies and practice them openly fear nothing. WOW! That is not a good thing.

I am so sorry for this confusing time in the RC Church. The contemporary RC historian Warren Carrol calls it the period of the great heresy of modernism. As all periods of great heresy, this too shall pass.

Kyrie Eleison!

Keep the faith...

In Christ,
Alice

Fr. bless!

I feel I can learn things from liberal scholars, especially about the history and culture at the time the bible was written.

I can see a mature Christian strong in his or her faith, might be able to "pick out the bones," and learn from somone like Borg. On the other hand, scholarship like Borg's, and people like Crossan and Spong, et al, is based on a lot of skepticism (i.e., a priori assumption that supernatural elements in the New Testament are mythic or symbolic) and speculation.

I strongly believe that this particular book (which I have in fact read completely) is entirely inappropriate for adolescents embarking on their faith journey. One needs to learn the basics first before having them demolished. I am appalled that my friend's church would use that for adolescents. Eternal souls are at stake here.

Blessings,

Lance

Bob, I must say, that is astounding to me, that you could be excommunicated simply for raising the issue of heresy. There is something wrong with this picture. Did your spiritual director give you any practical advice?

blessings,

Lance

Lance:

My spiritual director suggested that I continue doing what I have been doing and keeping the Faith as I have been doing. Other than that, there is little to be done except leave the parish.

Unfortunately I did distance myself for about three months with the thought of easing myself out, but it was my fellow parishioners who sought me out and asked me repeatedly to return. Even the people that I have trained in ministry came around and made it a point to say that they felt they and the parish needed my example, witness, and continued participation. These people who came were actually very powerful in their requests. Many have a little idea of what is wrong but don't have the background in reading over many years that I have had. I admit that I don't have a formal education but have been tutored and been doing recommended reading for over 40 years. And the sources that I have read have always been sold and orthodox. In fact, for a long while I had a rule that I did not and would not trust any English-language Latin Church source written after 1965 with the exeption of translations of Roman documents. To some that stance seemed prideful and arrogant, but I felt that it would be better to have a solid grounding before delving into sources that seemed to tear down everything that I'd been taught to believe. Seems it was the right path though it did cause a fair amount of isolation. On the plus side my former spiritual director told me privately that I was not only a breath of fresh air for him but also a touchstone with sanity in the face of so much "ongoing formation of the clergy" where he'd be forced to listen to the very things I refused to read or accept.

I should add that my pastor when I was a senior in high school told me that "In the future you will not be able to trust your parish priest because of the direction the seminaries are going. You will have to know the Faith and teach it to your children." As I have passed through almost 40 years since I heard that, I have come to see how prophetic that statement was. Of course, at the time, I was so stunned that I couldn't even react to it. I just sat like someone who'd been touched with a cattle prod.

BOB

Dear Bob,

I haven't heard these myself from the pulpit but I also don't know what was said in between these quotes. May I offer some apologetics?



If we do not "embrace" our sin,(Poor wording perhaps?, I would think "realize" would fit much better.),how do we acknowledge we ARE sinners. So I would say, sure, "embrace" your sin and do all you can to correct it.


The Gospel of Mark was the first to be written, without researching I think scholars date it somewhere between 70 and 80 A.D., a couple of decades after Christ's resurrection. So what is written is not literally or exactly what Christ said "verbatim" but what the evangelists empowered by the Holy Spirit remembered and wrote. This takes nothing away from the fact it is the inspired Word of God.


No one actually literally did see him rise form the dead.

It was only after encounters with him risen that anyone knew who he was. Mary Magdalene in the garden, the disciples on the road to Emmaus are only two examples.


I almost refrain from using this example but it is fitting. May God forgive me.

I had an elderly neighbor who attended church every day, stayed to clean the church afterwards,etc.; crucifixes and statues in every room, even religious light switchplates on her walls,the whole nine yards. She was however the biggest and meanest gossip on the block. (Eternal rest and mercy upon her, O Lord.)

How do we expect get to heaven without helping build the Kingdom.


We need to try to be "good" for all the right reasons not just for the sake of being good.


Though yes indeed He did rise to Heaven, He is also right here with us. Perhaps another poor choice in wording.

As I said in the beginning I didn't hear the entire sermon and all that was said in between. At first sight this is all pretty alarming. I may be totally wrong, but maybe this priest simply isn't the best preacher and I can see how it leads to confusion.

In Christ,
Bill