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Originally posted by Herbigny:
XA! Thanks Anastasios. Are you saying that Hierarchs can generally serve Divine Liturgy (assuming that the Vesting is expendable as you say) without any of the specific Hierarchical parts, e.g. no Trikeri/Dikeri, etc.?
And which style depends on the judgement call of the Hierarch serving?
Herb Yes, I am saying that, and I witness it occasionally at St. Vlad's chapel. They still bless like Bishops with two hands, there is still the singing of "eis polla eti", etc., but I am not sure if they use the interpolated trisagion (I will look for that next time). What I notice is that hierarchical liturgies are used when there is a feast day or an ordination (usually) although that was not the case recently, when a priest was ordained but the bishop served "as a priest." I have never personally seen a bishop serve with priests' vestments and omophore but I am assured that this practice still exists, and not as an isolate. I have frequently seen bishops preside but not serve, most recently at Pascha at St. Vlad's when Bp Serpahim (Sigrist) did so. Apart from questions of solemnity I don't know if there is a section in the typikon dedicated to when a hierarch does a specific type of serving. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can tell us? Yours in Christ, anastasios
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Francisco,
The Ruthenian typicon prescribes three prostrations on the way into the altar to receive ordination. It has nothing to do with Latinization or the fact that Fr. Deacon John is of Mexican American heritage. I do not know what other Byzantine typicons, Orthodox or Catholic, specify.
As to the Bishop's vestments, what are you talking about? They are completely within our tradition. Some like the older wrap around version, other prefer the newer style. I personally prefer the newer as it does not come unwrapped and need adjusted. It also looks more graceful in my opinion. As to the pastoral staff, since when did the size of the it have anything to do with Latinization? I think your comments directed to Bishop William are uncharitable and rude. One does not treat a hierarch with such disrespect if for no other reason to disrespect him is to disrespect Christ whom he represents.
In Christ,
Reader Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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I believe that all Byzantine traditions, both Orthodox and Catholic, call for three prostrations prior to ordination to the diaconate and presbyterate. The Ruthenians seem to do a "flat out" prostration while others do a bow to the ground, but the concept remains the same. The posters on the topic of hierarchical rubrics are correct. In Orthodox practice, there are a variety of ways bishops serve the Divine Liturgy in differing circumstances. Often it depends on the capability of the parish, availability of subdeacons and servers, or the situation. The list of possible combinations is long and I don't wish to type right now. Now, I don't see why some are getting on Bishop William's case over his vestments and staff. If I'm not mistaken, they seem to be similar (maybe the same) as his predecessor, Bishop George Kuzma. I looked in a couple pictures of Bishop George and he has the same types of highly-embroidered vestments and pieced-together omophorion, so why not get on his case too? Bishop George was praised for restoring Eastern traditions and such, so why the double standard? And the staff looks as if it were purchased from Greece; they come in stock sizes, not made to fit the height of the bishop. C'mon, people, there are other things to waste our time doing!  Happy feast to all celebrating this day! Dave
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There's nothing wrong with omophor over phelon. This was still common with Old Believer bishops whilst travelling at the begining of the 20 century, as was the use of the folded large omophor for use as the small omophor.
Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.
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Considering the distances many bishops have to travel these days, often on airplanes with more and more weight and size restrictions, there are bigger concerns than this for sure. A sakkos with gold thread, full omophor, etc. etc. do not travel exceptionally well unless the bishop has a van and some roadies to assist.
And as Father Mark rightly points out, this practice is used amongst the starovery. One of the great things about Byzantine tradition is our 'divine flexibility' or economia in matters such as these.
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I was visiting a vestment-seamstress two weeks ago. She commented how she never picks out fabrics for customers. The customer is the one who has to wear the vestments and thus has to be pleased with what fabric, galloon, style and so forth that he chooses. It might not be everyone's taste, it might not be her taste, but the customer has to be pleased.
We could say the same for hierarchical vestments. We might not like them, but we are not the bishop wearing them. Perspective is a funny thing. I see some vestments and think "beautiful" and I see some and think "ICK!" but if the wearer is pleased, what's it to me? There are limits (jump suit sets a DEFINATE no no!). Time will surely tell regarding the pieced-together omophorion. It might just fade to black without our complaining.
Dave
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Does anyone still wear the beautiful, simple vestments of embroidered Ukrainian linen - no gold - no galloon, but imeasureably beautiful?
Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.
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"Are you saying that Hierarchs can generally serve Divine Liturgy (assuming that the Vesting is expendable as you say) without any of the specific Hierarchical parts, e.g. no Trikeri/Dikeri, etc.?"
Here in Vilnius, Metropolitan Chrysostom of Vilnius and Lithuania usually celebrates as a priest in fellonion and epitrachilion, except that he blesses with both hands and allways wears a panagia. Sometimes he wears a mithre, but usually not. Only on great feastdays he wear hierarchical vestments such as sakkos and omophor. I've never seen him use triktir and diktir.
Christian
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Dave,
Very perceptive. You are in fact correct. The vestments and other hierarchical appointments are those that were originally made for then Bishop George, now eparch emeritus of Van Nuys.
As for my laying on the floor, these were the metanoias as called for in the rite of ordination. I prefer the full prostration as opposed to going down on my knees and bowing the head to the floor. The camera just happened to catch me in full prostration.
Just one question. Why is it when pictures of ordinations/consecrations are posted that the "sartorial experts" criticise episcopal vestments instead of celebrating the fact that the eparchs are calling men to orders and that those men are answering the call? The thread was initiated to allow those in cyberspace to celebrate with the people of Saint Stephen's on the occasion, not only of a diaconal ordination, but also, of the first vocation from the parish.
Why not debate the "sartorial abuse" in another thread (no pun intended)?
(Fr Deacon) John Montalvo
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Father, bless!
Yes, in UGCC churches you can find embroidered vestments, usually with the vishivka (embroidery) right on the vestment linen. These can be very beautiful, with black and red very common and blue as well. Even though these have no metal thread, excess gold, etc. many of our clergy reserve these for very solemn occasions. Patterns for these can be found in several Ukrainian embroidery books.
In the underground these were also common because linen could be had but no ecclesiastical fabrics, galloon, etc. so the babas did what they do very well - embroider the crosses right on the linen.
My wife is making me a set but will be a longer term project, partially because I can't decide if I want red/black or blue on the white linen. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by bisantino:
Just one question. Why is it when pictures of ordinations/consecrations are posted that the "sartorial experts" criticise episcopal vestments instead of celebrating the fact that the eparchs are calling men to orders and that those men are answering the call? The thread was initiated to allow those in cyberspace to celebrate with the people of Saint Stephen's on the occasion, not only of a diaconal ordination, but also, of the first vocation from the parish.
Why not debate the "sartorial abuse" in another thread (no pun intended)?
(Fr Deacon) John Montalvo Father Deacon John: Christos Voskrese! Many Years to You on the Happy Occasion of your Ordination! I think for most of us the comments on vesture and ornaments arise from our desire to see the church live up to its full liturgical potential. They are in no way meant to detract from the joy of this particular occasion. Michael
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Originally posted by Fr Mark:
There's nothing wrong with omophor over phelon. This was still common with Old Believer bishops whilst travelling at the begining of the 20 century, as was the use of the folded large omophor for use as the small omophor.
Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner. I just found this photo illustrating what Fr. Mark is saying: http://all-photo.ru/temples/index.ru.html?kk=6d33c457e5&img=24843&big=on#picts
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Way Cool!  What are those tassel things hanging down from what looks to be the poyas? XB Herb
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fr Mark:
[QB] Does anyone still wear the beautiful, simple vestments of embroidered Ukrainian linen - no gold - no galloon, but imeasureably beautiful?
Dear Fr. Mark,
Yes, we have a quite lovely priestly set of vestements here in traditional embroidered style. I'm not a fan of embroidery generally, but this is an exceptionally nice set. My spiritual father also has two sets, including a new one blessed at Pascha and donated to the church by a lovely woman in Ukraine who makes a living doing this work.
Kissing your right hand,
Adam
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