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I too am a big fan of the "vyshyvka" ryzi (vestments) and believe them to be one of the gems of our liturgical tradition. The intricate and beautiful handiwork that they are made of is unsurpassed by even the richest brocade available. While some can be quite "loud" most are both reverent and tasteful. Obviously, they are a lot of work and often, an entire village will work on creating a set for their local parish church.

God bless you all,

Fr. Joe

In the Old Rite, there are two pendant strips hanging down from the poyas at each hip.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Herb,

The Latin Church also has that vestment. It is called a subcingulum, and it hangs from the cingulum (cincture), but only from one hip. At one time all bishops used them now it is reserved for the Pope. I never new that the Old Rite used it as well. Any knowledge why the Old Rite uses it and nobody else Fr. Mark?

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Really! Fascinating!

So what is it for? And where does it come from?

At first I speculated whether it might be from some ancient poyas where it was wound around the waist & the extra length was left to hang down the front sides, 'cuz it kind of looks like those pendant "cloth-belt" things hanging down the front sides of Ukrainian dancers. But I guess not, eh?

XB!

Herb

Dear Lance,

I was not trying to be rude or unchraritable with bishop William (a quite traditional Byzantine name by the way, but I suppose that the name does not make the bishop) because I do not know him and I can not judge him. I was just trying to express my surprise towards what we could call the "particular liturgical developements" of the Ruthenian Catholic typikon. Dear Lance, there are not several Byzantine rites but one single Byzantine rite with several local typika and traditions that have to do with the history and peculiar circunstances of a given Church. I just whant to express my surprise when I observe liturgical developements at the Ruthenian Catholic Church that are completely unknown to me from my knowledge both of the other Byzantine Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches with similar national backgrounds. "Within our tradition" means for me "whithin the tradition of the Byzantine Church" not "within our local or national tradition". To keep the liturgical unity (with respect to the local traditions, when I say unity I do not mean uniformity) with our Byzantine brothers and sister both in the Catholic and the Orthodox Church is something quite important for me. That is not good to develope separate Byzantine rites (Ruthenian rite, Ruthenian American rite...), instead I consider that we should search for our common liturgical roots, the rite of the Great Church of Christ of Constantinople, and to try to keep the liturgical unity among us instead of breaking it.

Yours in Christ

Dear Francisco,

While you are correct in stating that there is only one Byzantine Rite, it is a fact that there are many recessions within that Rite.

The Liturgy, calendar, even many traditions, differ between these recessions. I know this as a Byzantine Catholic (That is I belong to the Byzantine Catholic Church, what you may call Ruthenian) who attends a Melkite parish. While there are many similarities there are also differences.

David

Francisco,

Your post was rude as well as misinformed. You obviously do not know the Byzantine tradition as well as you would like to think if you were unaware that prostrations during diaconal ordinations are part of our tradition and not a Latinization. As well Churches of the Byzantine tradition follow either the Typicon of St. Sabbas or that of the Great Church. In addition to that there are seperate Recensions for many of the particualr Churches of the Byzantine tradition. The Russians, Belarus, and Bulgarians follow the Vulgate Recension, the Ukrainians, Rusyns, Slovaks, Hungarians, and Croats follow the Ruthenian Recension. This is a valid practice that is in fact sanctioned by the Rome.

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Dear David,

I agree completely with you. I think that the point here is to keeep the liturgical unity while respecting the local traditions and particularities of each particular Church. Particularly although I belong to the Greek tradition and its throught the Greek tradition that I know the Byzantine rite I admire very much the Slavic tradition which in many points has perserved the ancient Byzantine traditions better than the Greek one. That is the unity of the Byzantine rite which allows you to attend a Melkite Catholic Parish without changing rite. I think that this unity in the diversity is great value that all of us should defend. About the name "Byzantine Catholic Church" I consider that no particular Byzantine Church can claim to be the true "Byzantine Catholic Church" and to consider the others "other Byzantines". Who are more Byzantines, the Ruthenians or the Ukranians, the Romanians or the Melkites? I think that all these particular churches are Byzantines and none of them should use the title "Byzantine Catholic Church". That is my personal opinion. Nevertheless I recognize the right of eachone to find a name for himself and I also take into account the multicultural character of American society and of the many of the former "Ruthenians" parishes in the USA.

Yours in Christ
Francisco

Dear Lance,

I suppose that I could tell you about what exactly the Euchologion says about the deacon's ordination rite,

I could tell you about the different typika and liturgical traditions,

I could tell you about my academic titles and how I learnt all what I know about the Byzantine rite (althought I have never pretended to know everything, I learn new things everyday)

I could do all these things but, do you know, I wont do it because I am in this forum to share my faith, my knowledge and my religious experiences with other people in love and charity and not to take part in a dialectic competition about who knows more about this or that topic.

If this forum is not, first of all, a place of communion of faith and love for Christians of different traditions and denominations then there is no reason for me to take part in it.

Yours in Christ,

Francisco (uncharitable, rude and misinformed)

Francisco,

This forum is a place of communion of faith and love for Christians of different traditions and denominations. You are the one who directed an inappropriate comment towards one of our bishops, which was in anything but love and charity. You are the one who made statements about this and that being a Latinization. You deserved to be called on the carpet for both. If you have something to share, share it without making a judgement on what others are doing, especially if you don't know what their typicon prescribes.

In Christ,
Reader Lance

So Francisco,
I guess our Hierarchy should have consulted you before choosing the name the Byzantine Catholic Church for itself?

As for your comment liturgical unity is done even with the different recessions, which I noticed you ignored or failed to comment on.

Yes, as we are the same Rite, the Byzantine Rite, I as a Byzantine Catholic can attend a Melkite Greek Catholic Church but there are differences.

Lets see, there are different Holy Days, such as the Feast of the Divine Body. The Melkites do not bless the Pascha baskets after the Paschal Liturgy. During the Vespers on Holy Saturday morning the priest in the Melkite church spreads laural leaves around the Church and Sanctuary. There is also the fact of different languages and wordings to prayers. As well as the fact that the Antiphon that follow the Litanies are different as practiced in the Melkite parish I attend than they are in the Byzantine Churches I have gone to.

While we may share a Rite there are still many differences.


David

Michael et al,

I am breaking my vow of silence on this one.

I think there is a time and a place to be worried about the type of thread, type of fold, and the height of a staff, BUT NOT WHEN WE SHOULD BE CELEBRATING THE JOY OF ONE CALLED TO SERVE GOD IN HIS CHURCH!!!

Most of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Is this what religion is all about? Isn't this the SICKNESS OF RELIGION? I hope you all have more to say at that frightful judgment day when you stand before the awesome judgment seat of Christ than just your obnoxious and long litanies of petty foibles over threads, folds, and staff heights.

There is a certain sickness that abounds, like a horde of logismoi, that keeps us off track from giving glory to God. Some petty and shallow people - and I mean that - cannot even be happy to share in the joy of now Father Deacon John Montalvo, his family, his parish family and the community at large for his dedication to serving YOU!

Sick! Sick! Sick!

It has nothing to do with keeping traditions traditional. Absolutely nothing! It has everything to do with some people's dimwitted and dark loathesome concerns devoid of anything radical found in the Gospels.

Petty! Petty! Petty!

Instead of sharing in the thrice-Axios, we pick out the little splinters in the photos. Our full 'liturgical potential' is giving glory to God in peace and love, not chasing after our heirarchs with a tape measure applying another litmus test to their authenticity.

If one's next post on this thread cannot be to congratulate Fr. Deacon John and offer him prayers, then I say you truly are sick in every nuance of the word.

Listen to what the great prophet Isaiah wrote:

- - -

1:11 "The multitude of your sacrifices-
what are they to me?" says the LORD .
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations-
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,

17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

- - -

Some are just as sick as the soldiers in Mark 15:24b. So concerned about the vestures that they were distracted from Him who was hanging on the cross before them!


Good bye,
Joe Thur

Dear Father Deacon John,

I want to congratulate you on the hard work that brought you to the happy day of your diaconal ordination.

Two men in our parish recently celebrated 25 years of service as deacons to our community.
May you have 25 years and more to serve the Church of the Eparchy of Van Nuys.

Christ's peace and the prayers of the Theotokos be with you,

Paul & Family

Michael et al,

I am breaking my vow of silence on this one.

I think there is a time and a place to be worried about the type of thread, type of fold, and the height of a staff, BUT NOT WHEN WE SHOULD BE CELEBRATING THE JOY OF ONE CALLED TO SERVE GOD IN HIS CHURCH!!!

Most of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Is this what religion is all about? Isn't this the SICKNESS OF RELIGION? I hope you all have more to say at that frightful judgment day when you stand before the awesome judgment seat of Christ than just your obnoxious and long litanies of petty foibles over threads, folds, and staff heights.

There is a certain sickness that abounds, like a horde of logismoi, that keeps us off track from giving glory to God. Some petty and shallow people - and I mean that - cannot even be happy to share in the joy of now Father Deacon John Montalvo, his family, his parish family and the community at large for his dedication to serving YOU!

Sick! Sick! Sick!

It has nothing to do with keeping traditions traditional. Absolutely nothing! It has everything to do with some people's dimwitted and dark loathesome concerns devoid of anything radical found in the Gospels.

Petty! Petty! Petty!

Instead of sharing in the thrice-Axios, we pick out the little splinters in the photos. Our full 'liturgical potential' is giving glory to God in peace and love, not chasing after our heirarchs with a tape measure applying another litmus test to their authenticity.

If one's next post on this thread cannot be to congratulate Fr. Deacon John and offer him prayers, then I say you truly are sick in every nuance of the word."


Dear Sir:

I deeply resent your comments, as I had specifically tried to place my remarks in the proper context. What I wrote was neither sick nor petty. I have already greeted the good Deacon on his ordination. If you would have read everything you would have noticed that.
Please vent your irrational anger somwhere and at someone else.

Michael

Joe,

Well said!

It seems that there are a few people around here who love to point out the short commings of us byzantines.

I have yet to see them say anything positive or constructive, seems all they like to do is point and complain.

David