www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology What Separates Catholicism and Orthodoxy?

Close enough for this off the cuff discussion!!

Mary

All that you've said makes good sense to me.

My only question for you is whether or not, if there was renewed communion proposed, would you fight it?

Mary

Dear Michael,

Yes indeed - that is the question - are those two perspectives mutually exclusive or two varying ways of looking at the same thing?

We will never arrive at a completely uniform "formula" of unity.

What we need to focus on, which is what His Holiness Pope Benedict has said, I believe, is to what extent will our future unity tolerate divergence on the doctrinal issues that have hitherto separated us.

And to Mary's point on the "sin of schism" - as long as both Catholics and Orthodox admit to that sin, we are ahead. If not, and it is one side calling the other sinful, we have achieved nothing.

Also, I would argue that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are NO LONGER in schism from one another (i.e. 1963 lifting of the anathemas).

They are simply "not in full communion" with one another. And I think the current progressive perspectives on ecclesiology could support such a distinction.

We cannot go to Communion to one another's churches etc.

But let's also remember that in the 19th century and before, Roman Catholics were FORBIDDEN to go to Communion in Eastern Catholic Churches, but EC's could go to Communion in Latin Churches (I have a Slavonic translation of the Vatican document that laid this out that I reread last night).

There's a lot of history not only between Orthodox and RC's that needs to be addressed, but also between EC's and RC's - and that history, even after unity was achieved with the EC's, also impacts on ecumenical relations today.

Alex

I'm not an activist or a zealout. If an agreement was reached that I could assent to, I would. If not, I wouldn't. By the same token however if I agreed with the RCC, I would be one today.

I honestly don't consider the possibility a whole lot, because it's like what would I do if I won the lottery. Who can say.

I do agree with Bishop Hilarion that we should work on issues where there is common cause.

Dear AMM,

In fact, it is not that YOU would fight or not fight this or that agreement.

It is a matter of whether Orthodoxy as a whole would or would not accept it.

Alex

Just as the Orthodox believe lex orandi-lex credendi in the liturgy, or that Orthodox doctrinal teaching cannot be separated from the liturgy, I believe that one cannot separate out Catholic moral teaching from Catholic doctrine, either. At that rate I don't think we have too much to talk about on the social front. We should tend to our own.

But if we find that we are expressing doctrinal truths distinctively, rather than expressing different doctrinal truths, then maybe there are grounds upon which we can cooperate morally.

If that is the case then there is no reason not to be in eucharistic communion.

Mary

Mary

Alex,

I would follow the decision of the hierarchs, unless that decision was clearly a betrayal of some fundamental doctrine of Orthodoxy.

Joe

However much we love to be part of the righteous majority, we are all saved one discreet soul at time and so any renewed communion between us will happen one discreet soul at a time. It may look as though it is en masse....or not...depending. But the fact of the matter, each soul will ultimately have to come along by their own choice.

I would think that would a very recognizably Orthodox way of looking at things.

Mary

Mary,

Would that mean that laity and individual clergy would take matters into their own hands and decide whom they will commune and where they will commune? Or, merely that each person who realizes that there isn't any reason any longer not to be in full communion would apply his powers to persuade those in authority to restore communion?

Joe

Dear Mary,

We are saved as individuals, but through the Church. It is not up to me as a Catholic or an Orthodox to decide religious truth, but it is up to my respective hierarchy.

If I were Orthodox, I would only be in communion with Rome if my bishop and patriarch said that that communion was effected and was real.

As a Catholic, it is when Rome announces that we are in communion with Orthodoxy that that communion is real as well.

As Joe above rightly puts it, there is the situation when heresy may involve people making their separate decisions.

But somehow I don't think heresy is on the horizon as a reason not to follow one's respective Churches and their legitimate hierarchies, whether Pope or Patriarchs.

FYI, if my UGCC ever decided to move out of communion with Rome and join a wider Ukrainian Orthodox Church etc., I would move with it, period.

I already believe that the UGCC current relationship with Rome is unworkable, we keep fighting one another under a pretence we are in "communion" with each other when in reality the UGCC hierarchy keeps trying to avoid the Roman bureaucratic clout before it comes down (the perspective that says "It is easier to ask for forgiveness after the fact than to ask for permission before it").

The fact that this bad relationship comes from Rome's ostpolitik with regards to Orthodoxy doesn't make us UGCCers happier either.

Alex

For myself, I can only say I disagree with this statement.

Dear AMM,

Why?

Alex

It may be a third option that I think is more likely. The hierarchy will come to the conclusion that there is no longer any real cause to be out of communion with one another. At that point there will be some effort to bring the rest of us up to speed in terms of an initial reasoning of why that might be true.

Then there would be internal discussions and then there would be a call to move toward formal communion. Much the way that things happened with ROCOR and Moscow. You and I both know that people who one week were saying "over my dead body" were going along the next and some of them actually exhorting others to be more agreeable. I watched it all unfold with people that I have known for years and I was stunned at the turn-about. I was happy for them and for the Churches.

So that is what I have in mind that may come later. That's why I asked...will you be a pusher away, or a puller together I am sure that you would have some influence on the people around you. Yours is not a weak voice.

Mary

Ahhh Fr. Serge.

You're so busy giving out fool's medals and passing judgment on every one who's opinion is different than yours, I don't know how you have time for anything else.

With your blanked statement, you just labeled most Orthodox Christians who reject Papal supremacy and Infalability as being ignorant.

A rather ignorant remark wouldn't you say?

In my list I said that the only thing stopping the Body of Christ from being United are the Claims that Rome makes on Supremacy and Infalibility.

Notice I left all the other "problems" of the list. This is to illustrate how close we really are.

We only have 1 major issue dividing us, but before there is unity we need to address it and solve it.

Ignoring a problem, or pretending it isn't there doesn't make it go away. In fact, I believe that it is people who share you're opinion who are actually standing in the way of Church unity.

Subject to the judgment of my betters, I'd go a step farther. I'd say that we can be almost certain that there is no mutual exclusivity in essential matters. So the rest is probably not worth delaying full communion over.

Agreed.

I don't know what you mean by "progessive perspectives on ecclesiology", but given that the lifting of the anathemas has occured, thanks be to God, it is urgent that full communion be achieved ("the love of Christ compels us"). I think the attitutes of John Paul II and Benedict XVI reflect this urgency: I think they have stated for the record that the See of Peter is ready and willing to remove any obstacle it can to full reunion with the Orthodox.

This seems to be an issue which only time can heal. Time, and the kind of practical koinonia (fellowship/cooperation) that Pope Benedict, Bishop Hilarion, and Patriarch Bartholomew have called for, to their great credit.

BTW, I noticed on another thread that there was some criticism of EWTN regarding their portrayal of the Eastern Catholics. Perhaps that's true, but let me also say that the only two Divine Liturgies I have witnessed I saw via EWTN (one of the Malabars, the other that of the Patriarch of Constantinople last fall) and I was very appreciative of that.

Also, I think that the Byzantine Catholics ought to go to EWTN with a producer of their own, and propose what they believe to be quality programming on the topic of Eastern Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or whatever approach they might like to take. Since they are the real "experts", they should provide the "quality assurance" as we say in software development. I'm fairly certain that RCs such as me would love to get it "straight from the firehose".