www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukraine: Emerging from the Catacombs

Jesus Christ I cannnot undestand it



could someone explaine me it


I am greek -catholic , I love my Church , my Motherland , My Mom , I pray in native language and I am putting in ome range as Hitler ,because I am natinalist , as said Borislav



dear brother please look on this world not by eyes as member of Russian M oscow orthodox patriarchat

Ohh please brother. Spare me the big words. Nobody called you Hitler.

I love Ukraine just as much as you do, and I have been told that if I am not Catholic, I am not Ukrainian.


I suggest you re-read my post friend.
I also said that ROC is very nationalistic also, and they are.

Our Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarch and we are very lucky!

However, although I do not agree with MANY things Moscow does, I would much rather look through the eyes of Moscow than Rome.

I see you are from Poland

My wife is Polish!

Ok ,that is ok Borislaw
When I hear about ukrainian nationalism and my church I became very nervous ,
that is ok

PS.Pozdrowienia dla żony

Dear Borislave,

I can't believe that you find Ukrainian Catholics to be nasty!

With respect to anti-semitism, there were many Ukrainians who saved Jews and these are listed in a separate list at Yad Veshem and also on the Yad Veshem website.

Pope John Paul II beatified Bl. Father Emilian Kovch in Premysl who, as you know, baptized Jews and gave them birth certificates - when he was interrogated by the SS (and the transcript is now public) this is what was recorded:

SS: Didn't you know it is against the law to baptise Jews?

Fr. Kovch: I didn't know anything.

SS: Do you know it now?

Fr. Kovch: Yes.

SS: Will you continue to baptise Jews?

Fr. Kovch: Of course . . .

He had six children of his own and allowed many Jewish children to hide on his farming property to escape the Nazis. When he was sent to a death camp, this is what he wrote to his Presbytera:

"My dearest, do not grieve for me that I am in this terrible place. God sent me here. Yesterday, fifty men were killed. Can you imagine their terrible grief? They had no one to be with them and so God sent me to stay with them in their final hours. Do not grieve for me, my dearest . . ."

His family members were present when Pope John Paul II beatified Fr. Kovch and also when the Polish and Ukrainian Catholic hierarchies joined together to declare him the patron of Peremysl.

My father helped save Jews, as did my uncle Basil (who save the parents of his Polish Jewish colleague at law school at the Jagiellonian University - I found the papers after he died), my wife's grandfather, Fr. Stepan (and the Jewish man came and found his benefactor and took him to his hotel in Miami Beach for a fun weekend to repay him!) and my grandfather, a Greek-Catholic priest who also hid Jewish children in his barn, fed them and then found ways to get them out safely.

And, Borislave, it was my personal privilege to develop legislation whereby the province Of Ontario in Canada officially observes Yom haShoah, the day of the Holocaust each year on the lunar Hebrew calendar - that bill is now law.

Ukrainians have a thing for the Russians, it comes from years of nastiness that emanated first from the Russians themselves and continues to this day.

As for Orthodox, I have yet to ever hear a UGCCer, even the most bigoted one, say anything against Ukrainian Orthodox. It was Orthodox Volyn that first rose up against Hitler and Stalin in the Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

Russophilism is a no-no - and one doesn't have to be Orthodox to be a Russophile. In fact, the most damaging Russophilism the Ukrainian Catholic Church experienced was from its own UGCC Russophile priests.

Alex

dziekuje!

Alex,

I do not deny that there are great people who are Greek Catholic, however I from my experience have found a extremaly strong sense of nationalism in the UCC.

Sometimes there is an overwhelming feeling that it is UKRAINIAN first and Christian second.

Also there is a big difference from being proud of Ukrainian culture, language, tradition and outright Rusophobia.

Dear Borislave,

Certainly, the Eastern Churches especially have that strong cultural identity that comes from years of oppression - including the Russian Orthodox Church that follows from its subjection to the Tatars and later the Soviets.

Being without the regular secular institutions that would regularize their social, cultural and political life, the Orthodox (and Catholic) nations in that situation saw the union of these functions with their respective national Church. Their liturgies and spirituality became, at once, an expression of their national/cultural identity in the fullest possible sense. Orthodox priests, during the Turkish Yoke, became not only religious leaders, but also national leaders and helped preserve Greek national identity and culture (St Kosmas Aitolos for example).

Also, when there is a particular national group that has been dominated for a while - yes, it will tend to want to "make up for lost time."

While Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine will get along famously, one problem is that Russian history tends to assert a type of imperialism very "matter of factly" - so it is less emotionally passionate than the attitude of Ukrainians who will jump at the slightest provocation.

There are some Ukrainians who don't like the spelling of "Kiev" and will become testy when they see that.

I don't know why . . . But, I for one, will no longer call the Administrator names should he use that version. (O.K., there - you made me say it!).

Russophobia has deep roots among Ukrainians and others for these and other reasons. The Russians are quite comfortable with their religious/national identity and they see no problem with it. Their world-view has been and still is that of the "establishment" in Russia, Eastern Europe and also the western world.

But every bit of Russian Orthodoxy is truly "Russian" - as it should be, after all.

Carpatho-Rusyns can also be Ukrainophobic for various reasons.

With respect to rapprochement between Ukrainians and Russians, it is rather hard when one side believes the other is simply being childish in refusing to submit to the "Great Russian" world-view that emanates from hundreds of years of imperialism.

A lot of what is touted today as "Russian" religiously, is, in fact, "Ukrainian/Kyivan Rus'" and the ROC considers itself to be founded on the Apostolic foundation of St Andrew at Kyiv which is why the MP will never allow Kyiv to become a patriarchate in its own rite. The MP sees itself as bearing the St Andrew tradition of Kyiv being only geographically removed northwards.

So ultimately the argument and struggle between Ukraine-Rus' and Russia-Muscovy in terms of ecclesial and cultural identity is over the same land and city-Church.

The Kyivan Church is not the Church of Muscovy, not historically and not in terms of spiritual culture.

The Ukrainian Orthodox movement for complete independence from the MP will eventually succeed, but there's a long way to go yet.

That won't prevent Ukrainians from intermarrying with Russians in Ukraine and elsewhere, or from celebrating May 9th and other soviet-era holidays together etc.

Aristocratic Russians have historically been also in favour of the recognition of the unique, separate identity of Ukraine, Ukrainian language and culture, as occurred by the Moscow Academy of Sciences in 1905 when it confirmed that the Ukrainian Language was an independent language in its own right.

In fact, Tsar St Nicholas II was quite sympathetic to the Ukrainian independence movement, something later Bolshevik propaganda quashed - he even paid to have the Kozak shrine of St George near Pochaiv renovated.

Met. Andrew Sheptytsky had strong ties with Russian aristocracy, many of whom he personally saved from the Bolsheviks. Met. Andrew and his brother, Bl. Clement, also helped save many Jews from the Nazi death camps and Met. Andrew did this by dressing Jews who came to him for help in the robes of seminarians.

When asked why he had so many black-robed seminarians by the Gestapo, Met. Andrew simply replied, "We've had a great harvest of vocations for the priestly and religious life this year!"

I, for one, do not believe that Russians and Ukrainians are the same people of the "nedilymaya Rus'" because to do so would be to buy into the ideology of Russian imperialism, Tsarist or Soviet, where the "Rus'" identity means "Russian" identity, the Russian language etc.

To affirm one's cultural identity is not nationalism - which is a political ideology that exists in 17 identifiable political forms.

Overdoing one's national/cultural pride is always an issue and that is a separate discussion.

I think many here "overdo" their North American identity in their references to the "ethnic" identity of churches.

In fact, many Eastern Churches have yet to accept the English mainstream identity of North America.

Even when they accept English liturgies, the English is prayed in a very strong cultural religious environment that is anything but North American - beginning with the cupolas, the Three-Bar Crosses and the Icons inside.

Alex

Alex,

I enjoyed reading your insightful post.

Thank you.

I am a strong advocate for Ukrainian Autocephalous Movement. However, I must say that I find the person of "Patriarch" Filaret to be rather unsetelling.

I would like to see Moscow give the Ukrainian Orthodox Church MP complete freedom and autocephaly.

I would like Metropolitan Volodymyr Sabodan to become Patriarch Volodymyr Sabodn.

I believe Ukraine needs to be free from the Russian Orthodox Church. Having said that, I do NOT believe that the path of freedom from Moscovy Church runs through the subjugation to Rome and Papism.

Dear Borislave,

I agree with you!

Alex

Alex,

It appears we are not that far from each other on our opinions of the situation in the Ukraine.

Also, I would like to express my sincere thanks on behalf of my family to you and your family for the heroic acts during the Nazi occupation.

If there were more like your Father and Uncle maybe more people would be alive today.

Also it was a great thing you did in Canada as it pertains to the
"Day of Holocaust".

Ahhhh, where to begin....

Maybe I should simply change a few words in your post and voila...



To: Pope of the Rome
CC: UGCC
From: Orthodox in the Ukraine

Now that we have emerged from the catacombs, we can finally address you officially.

Your Holiness ,Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God, Patriarch of the West, Vicar of the Apostolic See, Holy Father (thank God for wikipedia)

Wish we were in front of you so we could kiss your foot, just like you're predecessor asked Patriarch of Constantinople Joseph to kiss it before the Council of Florence!


With the co-operation of the Vatican, in 1596 the Secular authorities staged a mock synod and liquidated our Church in Ukraine. Bishops, priests, religious and laity were persecuted, tortured and killed. Many were forced to operate underground, always in fear of persecution.

But that's OK! You took control of our property, and let those who wanted to express their faith in your foreign Church. You even let our men study in your seminaries. THANK YOU! Of course those of us that got tricked into believing you had to face persecution and you tried to force clerical celibacy down our throats. That's no problem, we never liked getting married in the first place. Never mind that we continued to exist underground, trained and ordained clergy, ministered to the faithful - the real saving grace was your dominance, in alliance with the secular authorities. Go ahead, keep everything you took from us - it's the least we can offer! Maybe you can also send us a bill for our investment in us, buildings and clergy. We'll gladly spend a few generations paying back the great debt we owe you!

Groveling before the might and right of the symphonia reigning in Rome,

The ever-grateful faithful Orthodox Christians of Ukraine



PS.

Pardon my sarcasm but I think its a worthy reply to your no less sarcastic post.

Point of the meter is, our Church should be CANONICALY under the Patriarch of Constantinople, not ROME, not MOSCOW, not Pseduo Kievan Patrirchate (until it is canonical), not anyone else.

But wait.... I forgot, according to the Pseudo scholar in the video the Ukrainian Church was never Orthodox in the first place, it was ALWAYS Greek Catholic, and the Union with Rome was to STOP THE SPREAD OF PROTESTANTISM IN THE UKRAINE.

Ahem.... yeah....

Borislav Smiyetsia . . .

Tak

Rats, it's off YouTube now. Can anyone give me info on how to get the entire thing on DVD? I want to use it in my college class. Z'Bohom