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Well, being "baptized" by sprinkling isn't a valid baptism, and when one converts to the Catholic Church if it's a possibility that he was "baptized" by sprinkling, he is conditionally baptized.
But "pouring" is valid, from a Catholic point of view, and the most common practice in the Latin Catholic Church, though of course not unilateral and with the knowledge that full immersion symbolizes what baptism is all about most accurately.
Alexis Sometimes, in religious polemics, people never want to think of the valid reasons that may have existed for the changes we see that have been made in the Western Church. I have never read this, but have always theorized that 'pouring' in the West probably occured because of the practice of baptizing infants as soon as possible after their birth. In a period of history when the majority of one's children died, and when antibiotics and real medical care did not exist, I don't think that the Church would have been so insensitive to an infant's precarious health and very life, as to have immersed an infant in baptism in a cold, damp church. I also think that this may be the reason that Orthodox tradition is to baptize babies at an older age. In my whole life, I don't think that I have ever witnessed a baby baptized under the age of six months. I have never really read a reason for this, but it makes sense in keeping with my above train of reasoning. ...Just my theory, for what it is worth! Alice Alice, I think that what you say is likely true. I would also add that the Didache (late 1st/early 2nd century) already specifies pouring as an optional mode of baptism, though immersion is preferred. I wonder if the different theologies of Original Sin have something to do with the different practices as well, at least in terms of the timing of baptism. Many older Roman Catholic manuals and books specify that parents have a moral duty to bring their children to the baptismal font as soon as possible, lest the child dies in original sin. I've never seen this same concern in the Eastern Churches. Joe
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Bpatism by immersion never died completely in the Latin Church. Pouring (infusion) became the "line of least resistance" in cold, northern climates before the invention of convenient methods of heating, but in places like Southern Italy, immersion remain in common use (I'm not referring to the Italo-Greeks, who of course continued immersion).
Presently, Baptism by immersion is regaining considerable popularity in the Latin Church - I've seen several Latin churches with beautiful fonts suitable for the Baptism of adults.
Fr. Serge
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Bpatism by immersion never died completely in the Latin Church. Pouring (infusion) became the "line of least resistance" in cold, northern climates before the invention of convenient methods of heating, but in places like Southern Italy, immersion remain in common use (I'm not referring to the Italo-Greeks, who of course continued immersion).
Presently, Baptism by immersion is regaining considerable popularity in the Latin Church - I've seen several Latin churches with beautiful fonts suitable for the Baptism of adults.
Fr. Serge Thanks Fr. Serge! You have validated my theory of the danger of cold weather!  As always, Respectfully, Alice P.S. I hope that you read my last post to you on this thread thanking you for your correction.
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Joe,
I have to admit that I find it strange that he is going to be "baptized" as a Baptist this week, and yet fully plans to explore Orthodoxy as soon as next week. Perhaps it has something to do with his state of catechesis regarding the nature of the "sign", but the requirement of a "believer's Baptism" which supercedes a previous valid baptism is foreign to both Orthodox and Catholic Tradition. It is a complete invention of the 16th century Anabaptist movement.
This could also be a catechetical moment for him - to understand the great inheritance of faith in Christ that is already his to claim.
Truthfully I am bothered by the practice of rechrismating, but do not desire to open that can of worms!
Blessings,
Gordo
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Gordo:
I think you've got two different men mixed. Brother-in-law who appears to be sister's husband with brother.
BOB
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Gordo:
I think you've got two different men mixed. Brother-in-law who appears to be sister's husband with brother.
BOB Oops! Thanks, Bob! Well, all that other stuff I said still applies...at least I think! Gordo 
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Well, being "baptized" by sprinkling isn't a valid baptism, and when one converts to the Catholic Church if it's a possibility that he was "baptized" by sprinkling, he is conditionally baptized.
But "pouring" is valid, from a Catholic point of view, and the most common practice in the Latin Catholic Church, though of course not unilateral and with the knowledge that full immersion symbolizes what baptism is all about most accurately.
Alexis Sometimes, in religious polemics, people never want to think of the valid reasons that may have existed for the changes we see that have been made in the Western Church. I have never read this, but have always theorized that 'pouring' in the West probably occured because of the practice of baptizing infants as soon as possible after their birth. In a period of history when the majority of one's children died, and when antibiotics and real medical care did not exist, I don't think that the Church would have been so insensitive to an infant's precarious health and very life, as to have immersed an infant in baptism in a cold, damp church. I also think that this may be the reason that Orthodox tradition is to baptize babies at an older age. In my whole life, I don't think that I have ever witnessed a baby baptized under the age of six months. I have never really read a reason for this, but it makes sense in keeping with my above train of reasoning. ...Just my theory, for what it is worth! Alice Alice, I think that what you say is likely true. I would also add that the Didache (late 1st/early 2nd century) already specifies pouring as an optional mode of baptism, though immersion is preferred. I wonder if the different theologies of Original Sin have something to do with the different practices as well, at least in terms of the timing of baptism. Many older Roman Catholic manuals and books specify that parents have a moral duty to bring their children to the baptismal font as soon as possible, lest the child dies in original sin. I've never seen this same concern in the Eastern Churches. Joe Yes, Joe, this makes perfect sense. Original sin and the previous idea of limbo would indicate that a baby needed to be baptized as soon as possible. If that baby was born in the nine months out of a year in which northern European climates are cold, then the baby would be at risk of death if it were immersed in water. (Let's not forget that people didn't even bathe at one time, but once a year, out of fear of illness). Because Eastern Christians did not have this fear of the particular Western interpretation of original sin and limbo, I guess that parents could wait until the warmer months to baptize their babies. Regards, Alice
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We at our Latin parish always baptize by full immersion. Not only the adults but even the children.
It is an awesome ceremony and it is always within the context of the Mass.
Only under rare circumstances do we vary from that norm.
Health issues, etc.
Stephanos I
Last edited by Stephanos I; 05/29/07 12:22 AM.
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Dear Father Stephanos, The baptism ceremony is certainly a beautiful ceremony, especially when it is full immersion. To get a little deeper though, (as I like to do), I believe what we're talking about when mentioning immersion or pouring, is merely what one can call the 'rubrics' of a ritual. It is an outward action of a spiritual encounter emanating from the love of those within Christ, to those not yet in Christ. If that encounter exists without a priest, it still is an immersion into Christ, or better yet, an immersion of Christ into us, and therefore a spiritual encounter. So regardless, it would be a baptism...or so I think!  Of course being human, and as such, have need of certain tangible and outward actions to confirm our inner beliefs, the Church through it's wisdom, gives us the beautiful ritual of a formal baptism. The more beautiful it is, the more meaningful it becomes to our highly limited selves. Father please bless, Zenovia
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Can anyone comment on the Greek Orthodox practice of "aerobaptism?"
Does that mean that the validity of one's baptism is then "up in the air?"
Alex
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There was a piece on the need to send more Baptist missionaries to Russia since most Russians, even though they are Russian Orthodox, don't know Jesus. Basically, this article, he said, asserted that Russian Orthodox are all still pagans. And this is the bottom line that we must realize. No matter how much we may regard them as "separated brethren," or Christians who are imperfectly united to the Church, the fact is that the rank and file of fundamentalism and evangelicalism do not consider us to be true Christians and it is their goal to evangelize all Orthodox and Catholics. Dear Joe, This is a ticklish situation. On the one side we have people who were raised as athiests, (Russia was 70% athiest ten years ago), and are considered Orthodox by the Church, and on the other side, we have people that want to evangelize them into accepting Christ. My question becomes, if these people are to die in their unbelieving state, (as millions probably have), is it better than having them die in a believing state, yet within a Church that is not complete? Also by allowing them to evangelize, the possibility exists that they may once again become Orthodox...as I believe they have. The Church has grown fuller, and I believe it is because of them. I also wonder if those that have hindered them from evangelizing even more fully, will be encountable some day for the souls that have been lost. To me, one should not try to make another Orthodox, no more than trying to make them Baptist or what not. For by doing so, they are imposing their own faith onto another. To impose anything on another is a reaction of our prideful nature, and therefore we are doing it through our sinful pride. Better to help one grow spiritually in whichever way they can, so that the time will come when they themselves might choose, (through their own free will), a more complete Church. Besides, people are not willing to give up their heritage so easily...and that includes the Russians. To give an idea of how beneficial the Baptists and Evangelicals are to all of Christianity, the most devout Orthodox live within the Bible belt. I know, I know! I guess I'm a heretic!  God Bless, Zenovia
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Can anyone comment on the Greek Orthodox practice of "aerobaptism?"
Does that mean that the validity of one's baptism is then "up in the air?" Dear Alex, You are funny!   God Bless, Zenovia
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I apologize if what I am about to say sounds mean spirited. Would you attend a ceremony where they brought out an animal and slowly tortured it to death? I seriously doubt any of us would.
Why?
Because our presence at such an event is a mute statement of agreement to what is occurring.
The schism in the Church will continue as long as Catholics and Orthodox continue to treat Protestantism as if it is legitimate and "just another form of Christianity."
It is not.
If that's the case, then I was an idiot to convert 6 years ago, seeing as how it put me and my family through a lot of grief. Would have been nice to stay Anglican, seeing as how I loved their liturgical rubrics.
Does truth matter? I, for one, think so.
As Fr. Mike + (Eternal Memory) said the first homily he gave in 2003, "If the Catholic Faith is not the Truth, then why even bother being Catholic?"
Dern good question, yet so many treat it (and Holy Orthodoxy) as if these two apostolic Faiths are nothing more than just another form of Jesus worship alongside the Protties.
Me? I'd find a way to bow out.
Brother Ed
PS I went through this with my wife's funeral. My sister in law, who was handling the arrangements for me, pulled a fast one and had a "woman priest". I went, but everyone in the family found out that I tried to get her changed out of the assignment and that I wrote her a letter telling her that her "ordination" was not valid. Then the cookies hit the circulartory air device, even to the point of my brother-in-law calling me and reading me the riot act.
Well, tough!
So, as they say, I have been there and done that. If you simply have to go, I think you might, if so inclined, try to engage the "pastor" in a little game of "who's church goes all the way back to the apostles" or something equally interesting. Might also write the B I L and ask him why he ditched the true Faith for something made up in the 16th century. Who knows, might get something started that could lead him back to his senses!
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Zenovia, I understand and you are not a heretic I will just make one point that I think is important. These folks (the southern baptists) do not think that it is simply due to communism that most Orthodox don't know Jesus. They think that the Orthodox church is not a true Christian church and that faithful Orthodox are not Christians. It is not just unchurched they are targeting. They believe that anyone who does not believe exactly as the baptists believe about justification by faith alone and attaining certainty of salvation is not saved. I know this because I was raised baptist. Awhile back, someone posted some writings from the missions board of the Southern Baptist Convention. They have whole reports on how Orthodox have a "voodoo religion" and are not true Christians. Joe
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Brother Ed,
I understand your concerns and I know enough of church history and theology to know that the protestant communions are significantly deficient when it comes to proclaiming the full truth of apostolic Christianity. I do not in any sense see the Catholic or Orthodox Churches as just denominations.
On the other hand, we need to be care and to be prudent. It goes without saying that we need to speak the truth in love, but we also need to know when to speak and when to be silent. Let me give an example,
If it turned out that I ended up going to this faux baptism, I would smile, nod, mind my own business, and be pleasant. Because starting an argument or making a point to show that someone is wrong would not do any good. However, if someone asked me point blank, what is your view of baptism and what do you think of (brother in law) leaving the Catholic Church. I will simply say what I thought was true with as much meekness as I could muster. I understand that each of us has to make a very personal decision about how to handle these things.
Joe
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