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Oh, and I don't see what's wrong with wearing pictorial representations of icons on the back, as seen in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox vestments above. It's not
ACTUALLY an icon, so it's not like we have to worry about venerating that image sewn into the vestment.

Alexis

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John K Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
I would not advise anyone to save, purchase, and donate the good vestments without a reliable insurance that the good vestments will then be worn!

Warning to prospective donors: check with the Priest FIRST. If you donate something strongly against his preferences, the likelihood that it will fade away to nothing before he wears it increases drastically. I can tell you that if someone gave me a Phelonion with an icon on the back of it, and a lace nightgown instead of a sticharion, it would be a long, cold winter before I would thus appear in private, let alone in public.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge--

Bless!

I was not advocating a willy-nilly purchase of such high quality and expensive vestments. Obviously there are priests that would balk at the idea of wearing the products of Watts and Co.

Honestly as well, if they were commissioned and purchased by parishioners for the parish the current priest could wear or not wear them at his leisure, understanding that they belong to the parish and not to him. (The same goes for vessels or other liturgical items belonging to the parish.) Eventually, there would come along a priest who would wear them, recognizing their quality.

I was simply trying to show that there are real alternatives to some of the disposable, cookie cutter vestments produced in the USA and Europe and simply FAWNED over by some clerics.

BTW, I would agree with your assessment of lace albs and cottas. Lace belongs on ladies dresses, handkerchiefs and doilies, not on liturgical vesture.

John K #236693 05/26/07 01:43 AM
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Lace is not girly. Disparaging lace because it seems girly seems about as odd to me as saying priests dress like women because they wear cassocks.

Wearing BRAS is girly; wearing lace? Give me a break! Who gets to decide that what priests have been wearing for a few hundred years is girly?

In case you haven't noticed, I much prefer lace. But if albs and the like absolutely MUST be plain (and I don't see any reasons why they must), at least have them be apparelled, for Heaven's sake.

Alexis

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Quote
Honestly as well, if they were commissioned and purchased by parishioners for the parish the current priest could wear or not wear them at his leisure, understanding that they belong to the parish and not to him. (The same goes for vessels or other liturgical items belonging to the parish.) Eventually, there would come along a priest who would wear them, recognizing their quality.

John K:

What happens if the priest puts the gift in a closet, years pass, and the next assigned priest cannot find it?

Something like that happened in my parish some years ago. The pastor asked for donations for buyng a set of each liturgical color for each of the priests of the parish--twelve sets in all. The next pastor didn't like them and by the time the next pastor after him was assigned they'd all disappeared. Sent off to the missions or simply disposed of at some point.

And if you don't think this happens, I was given a carload of vestments once that were being disposed of. I simply went to a small Anglican parish near home and asked the Anglican priest if he'd like any of it. You'd have thought I was Santa Claus and it was Christmas!

I think I'd take Father Serge's advice. One man's beautiful vestment is something another might cringe at. Some of the vestments that were made and used forty years ago are things that most clergy wouldn't even consider wearing today. One thing that comes to mine is that some of the things posted are made of rather heavy material that makes the wearing of them more than uncomfortable for the priest. Buying a set of vestments for a priest is a bit like buying neckwear for Dad on Father's Day: best to have some idea of his taste.

BOB

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Dear John,

You and I seem to be in basic agreement here. I join you in deploring cheap vestments, unless one is in a situation of such poverty that one has no choice. Way back when I was a deacon I took a course from Father Boniface Luykx of holy memory and one of his first comments was that the vestments one often finds in America are much too cheap.

There are places where one can obtain good vestments, and they don't have to cost the US Mint. Tip: one can often save money by the simple expedient of buying the materials from a wholesaler (La Lam´┐Ż in New York is excellent) and then commissioning someone who knows how to do it to sew the vestments to order). Good vestments can be obtined from Moscow and from Athens - but one should expect to pay for them.

To add to the complications, Byzantine vestments should always be tailored to fit the cleric who will wear them. But few priests can afford to maintain a complete wardrobe of high-quality vestments.

If we want to have good deacons and good adult subdeacons, one method of manifesting our respect for these vocations is to provide such clerics with good vestmentss, made to fit the wearer.

Then there is the consideration that vestments are made of cloth, and are intended to be worn with some frequency. Thus they are unlikely to last forever, especially if they are not properly cared for (which is a discussion in itself). So one must be prepared - and the congregation must be prepared - to replace old vestments with some regularity. Perhaps a rotating system?

[In case you're wondering: antique vestments if they are beyond use can be given to a suitable museum, or they can sometimes be looked over carefully to see what can be salvaged from them and recycled for other vestments. In any event, they are not simply to be thrown into the rubbish; they may properly be buried in consecrated ground.]

I could continue, but time is pressing.

Fr. Serge

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Father Serge,

Do you by any chance have a web site for the Moscow vestments?


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While not to my taste, the vestments pictured are a DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT to the double knit junk the local Roman priests wear. And like Fr Serge, I sort of wrinkle my nose a bit at having an icon on the back of a phelon. My tastes run more to heavy brocades and velvets, but then again, it's cold in Russia!

Alexandr

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Matt 6:31-33

Matthew Dunn #236815 05/26/07 11:43 PM
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Here's a picture of lace and flowery white vestments.

Personally, I don't see anything feminine about them.

[Linked Image]

Alexis

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What a beautiful photo! Everything is so beautiful and respectful...Garrett, do you know in what church and country this photo was taken?

Regards,
Alice

Alice #236819 05/26/07 11:56 PM
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Alice, I *think* that's the London Oratory. I'll go check...

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Yeah, it's the London Oratory.

Go here to view all of the Mass pictures: http://www.traditionalcatholic.org.uk/CIEL_UK_May_2007/Introduction.html

Alexis

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Dear Subdeacon,

I think there is a Sofrino web site one can reach through the Moscow Patriarchate web-site. If that doesn't work, but you speak Russian, send me a PM and I'll send you a telephone number of a place in Moscow that makes excellent vestments and similar items. If you're going to Moscow, it's adjacent to the Church of Saint Gregory of Neo-Caesarea.

Fr. Serge

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If you prefer your roman style (and sometimes lace!) vestments with a history (with previous traditionalist form?) then this site is a good one; the occasional bargain too;

www.luzarvestements.co.uk [luzarvestements.co.uk]

And for a big variety of stuff and some rubbish at nicer prices should any one need decent stuff for bi ritual services, this is worth checking out;

www.cassock-u-like.org.uk [cassock-u-like.org.uk]

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Thanks for the pic! Very pretty.

I don't think I ever implied that lace was effeminate. All I'm saying is: Let's just keep our priorities straight (Matt 6:31-33).

Still, after many Traditional Masses, I have to say I have come to prefer "the most beautiful thing this side of heaven," namely the Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

(BOOM! No, he dih-int!) biggrin

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