www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology invited to baptist re-baptism of Roman Catholic

I apologize if what I am about to say sounds mean spirited. Would you attend a ceremony where they brought out an animal and slowly tortured it to death? I seriously doubt any of us would.

Why?

Because our presence at such an event is a mute statement of agreement to what is occurring.

The schism in the Church will continue as long as Catholics and Orthodox continue to treat Protestantism as if it is legitimate and "just another form of Christianity."

It is not.

If that's the case, then I was an idiot to convert 6 years ago, seeing as how it put me and my family through a lot of grief. Would have been nice to stay Anglican, seeing as how I loved their liturgical rubrics.

Does truth matter? I, for one, think so.

As Fr. Mike + (Eternal Memory) said the first homily he gave in 2003, "If the Catholic Faith is not the Truth, then why even bother being Catholic?"

Dern good question, yet so many treat it (and Holy Orthodoxy) as if these two apostolic Faiths are nothing more than just another form of Jesus worship alongside the Protties.

Me? I'd find a way to bow out.

Brother Ed

PS I went through this with my wife's funeral. My sister in law, who was handling the arrangements for me, pulled a fast one and had a "woman priest". I went, but everyone in the family found out that I tried to get her changed out of the assignment and that I wrote her a letter telling her that her "ordination" was not valid. Then the cookies hit the circulartory air device, even to the point of my brother-in-law calling me and reading me the riot act.

Well, tough!

So, as they say, I have been there and done that. If you simply have to go, I think you might, if so inclined, try to engage the "pastor" in a little game of "who's church goes all the way back to the apostles" or something equally interesting. Might also write the B I L and ask him why he ditched the true Faith for something made up in the 16th century. Who knows, might get something started that could lead him back to his senses!

I grew up Southern Baptist. Multiple influences played a role in my coming to Catholicism. No doubt, Bill, my dear friend going back to 3rd grade and a life-long Catholic, was the most influential. Never once did he attack or insult my faith or suggest that Baptists are not Christians. Had he done so, I may or may not have become Catholic, but I strongly doubt that in the case I had still become Catholic, I would be acknowledging his influence in that decision.

Ryan

Dear Joe,

I am aware that the Baptists, and many other Protestant churches, believe that the Orthodox Church have practices that are considered pagan. Of course we do! The Church in it's wisdom, took whatever practices existed in the Hellenic world, and incorporated them into Christianity. It was all part of God's plan, otherwise there would have been no way millions upon millions of people would have accepted Christ. Our Lord can be very flexible in how He reaches people. (Tell that to them!)

People were reached in the only way they could understand. Today though, we do not live in a Hellenic world, that is except within the Orthodox and Catholic Church. The very Churches that the Hellenic world helped to form.

No matter! In area's of the nation where the Protestants are in the majority, and evangelizing is everywhere, the Orthodox are much more devout than in area's where the Evangelicals are almost non-existant. The Evangelicals are very devout, and through them, all Christianity grows. That they are elitists, and have a theology formed in opposition to the original Churches, is a lack of understanding on their part, and basically spiritual immaturity. An immaturity that can be found among our own fundamentalists.

One cannot hide the fact that our Orthodox converts that were nurtured in those faiths, are more devout than many cradle born Orthodox. Also that those that changed their faith and became Evangelical, and then returned, are more devout than many that were born Orthodox and remained in the faith. I can assume the same exists for many Catholics.

If they cannot understand our beliefs in miracles, and revering saints and icons, then we can consider it ignorance in the same way that we find their speaking of tongue's strange. Unfortunately, as human beings we are limited and in a sense wrapped around ourselves. We only understand that which we are accustomed to and is therefore part of us.

If we look at what they were doing in Russia in an objective way, we would see that many became Evangelical even though those churces are being persecuted. Yet if 10% of the people were to have become Evangelical, and 50% would have turned to Christ and became Orthodox because of them, (people do not leave their heritage so easily), then wouldn't it have pleased our Lord? In that sense, had they not entered Russia, 60% would have remained athiests, so would it really matter how elitists those faiths are? (I'm only guessing at the numbers you know). We are to look at the fruits...and basically you too, (as having been nurtured as a Baptist), are one of the fruits.

Besides, I don't think any of them are as bad as the Pentacostals. Now them I don't like.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dear Brother Ed,

In fact, when I first came on this forum, what I had terrible problems with is how Catholics here congratulate those who become Orthodox, very often former Catholics, on becoming members of the Orthodox Church!

It seemed that a form of the Anglican "branch theory" of the Church was at play on this forum where EC's and RC's saw Orthodoxy as fully "the Church" even though it wasn't "completely full" with respect to the empty glass/full glass viewpoint.

I've since overcome that . . .

But if someone is going to become a Protestant, then that is "where they are at."

They don't have to stay there, and in all likelihood they won't - especially if there are good Catholic and Orthodox relatives who will influence them later.

One may consider the sobering fact that there are many posters here who are former Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and even former members of "vagante" jurisdictions.

They are living witnesses to the power of God's Grace in their lives and the good influence of others who help channel that enlightening Grace over their spiritual eyes that will eventually be washed clean of what impedes their sight.

Alex

before a Greek Orthodox church was established in Chattanooga, the Greeks attended Christ Episcopal, no Romish and Babylonish church for them!
as far as a Catholic (Latin or Eastern) needing to be rebaptized, that is nothing short of outrageous and insulting, I don't care what the reasons are. Rome accepts Baptism AND Chrismation of Orthodox, does she not?One good thing out of all of this: whenever I get P.O.'d at Rome and think of nipping on over to Constantinople, I remember why I don't.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear John,

I tend to agree with you, and hopefully the Holy Spirit will start moving the people towards unity. Talks are being held, but without that movement of the people it will be to no avail.

I recall reading that around the seventeen hundreds, the two Churches in the Greek world, were quite close. I thought about it, and came to my own conclusion that it probably had something to do with the political situations of the time. Venice had wars with the Ottomans, and in retaliation the Latins on at least one of the islands was massacred. The logical response of the Catholics living there, would be a conversion to the Orthodox Church, or the pretension of a conversion. I can't help but feel that this might have brought the two Churches closer.

By the same token, the attack by Mussolini on the boat carrying pilgrims to the island of Tinos, (some say it might have been the English in order to give Italy the blame), as well as the attack on Greece at the beginning of WWII, helped separate the Churches. The hostility was so strong, that Greece refused to accept the removal of the 'Anathema's' until Christodoulos, (a younger man without those hang ups), became Archbishop.

Again, the talks stopped with the break up of the Soviet Union and the demand to have the Byzantine Catholic churches returned. So all in all, it seems that the political situations, and the peoples 'will' is what's important.

I will say another thing though, just as the most devout American Orthodox are those within the Bible belt, it seems the most devout Greeks are those living on the islands that belonged to Italy after WW I, and had a strong Catholic presence.

This is an important time for unity, and prayers are needed.

God Bless,

Zenovia

okay, I like what you said. however, Mussolini cannot be seen as any example of a Christian of any tradition. it doesn't surprise me that he would pull such an atrocity. I will not call it a stunt.
Much Love,
Jonn

Jonn,

Not meaning to be rude, but that's just dumb. And I'm not Orthodox, so I'm not trying to convince you to go Eastern Orthodox (for Heaven's sake, stay in our wonderful Church!).
But come on, just because we view Orthodox sacraments as valid doesn't mean they are obliged to believe the same about us. It's not some super-ecclesiological tit for tat. Churches are entitled to their own ecclesiology and belief system.

The Anglicans could (foolishly) complain in the same way about us Catholics: "Boo hoo, we see y'all as having Apostolic Succession, but you won't return the favor? Unfair!" Even those with half a brain can see how asinine is such a line of thinking.

Alexis

Alexis:

You may not agree with Jonn, but you don't need to resort to casting insults. I can point you to people with far more than half a brain (who may even be brighter than you) who subscribe to such "asinine" thinking.

Ryan

Ryan,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Jonn doesn't have half a brain! But I've seen him espouse these views a few times already; each time I've noticed I've tried to explain the illogic of that sort of thinking, as many have done with me on a host of other issues.

Forgive my prickly words, but I find the kind of thinking that Jonn espouses to be truly uncharitable to Eastern Orthodoxy and its adherents. I think the sort of "they're a bunch of arrogant jerks because they don't recognize our Sacraments/Mysteries" thinking shows a lack of respect for (1) religious freedom, (2) Orthodox theology, and (3) reason.

Alexis