www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Motu Proprio - today (June 2)?

To All,

The Cathedral in St. Louis is magnificent!

My time is limited right now.
I will say I wholeheartedly welcome the use of the Tridentine Mass, universally and without restriction. But I can picture it now...Mass was beautiful, but did you see the wrinkles in the altar linen.

Focus,focus,focus.

More to come.

In Christ,
Bill

P.S.- Has anyone seen the Masses on EWTN lately?
Also, about a month ago I saw the Pope serve Mass at a juvenile detention center in Italy where guitars were used. I never saw him wince once.

Bill,


I think I know where you are coming from. That NLM site, though very well motivated, in general, can sound like a day in art appreciation class. They do have beautiful pictures.

Focus indeed.

Yes, I have seen Mass recently on EWTN; and yes, I saw Pope Benedict at the detention center. I don't know if he winced since I couldn't stop wincing myself.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Having been relieved of my obligations for this evening, I'm back.

I must say I'm quite familiar with the NLM website.
Though I'm not quite sure where you are coming from I sense your remarks to be flippant and trite.

I've decided not to proceed any farther with my own comments on this thread. I will simply refer back to my previous post. Take from it what you will. For the most part, I follow my Church and it's Shepherd without wincing.

In Christ,
Bill

I really enjoy the NLM site. The only difference I have with them is that while they're in favor of merging the two liturgies (Ancient and New), I'm pretty much for chucking the Pauline Mass, and starting from scratch, organically!

Alexis

as the English would say "ah Bless!"

Alexis, organically is the key. The main problem with the Pauline Mass is that it was a Mass composed by committee and not something that grew up out of the prayer life of the Church. What needed to happen was for the Mass of St. Pius V to evolve naturally and not be put on the back shelf.

Joe

I agree completely.

Alexis

indeed !!!!

I am in favour of a merger of the current Rite and the older Tridentine Rite. I think that the music needs to be more diverse than Gregorian and the language must be in the vernacular for the Liturgy to survive and become normal for the masses. Of course, some Latin should remain, such as the 'Pater Noster' perhaps?

Gregorian Chant, while lovely, is not the only music composed for the Tridentine Mass. And the Tridentine Mass already exists in quite a number of modern languages.

A more serious problem was - and could be again - that the Tridentine Mass was kept in a rigid, frozen condition and not permitted to evolve organically. A reaction was inevitable.

Fr. Serge

Dear Bill,

I'm sorry if my remarks upset you, or if I misinterpreted yours. I take your words in the spirit of fraternal correction. Thank you.

I do also follow my Shepherd and Church straight down the line, and I pray for the Pope and the Church every day.

In Christ,
Michael

Wait, wait. Why does the liturgy have to be in the vernacular, Michael, to survive? The Roman Rite Mass did just fine in Latin for 1700 years!

And Fr. Serge, wasn't the Traditional Mass kept in a "frozen" condition out of reaction to the Protestant heresy? Still, there were some changes, like the addition of St. Joseph to the Canon that you mentioned earlier.

And for the record, there are plenty of us who don't find the Tridentine Mass either rigid or frozen, but rather warm, beautiful, and the most enchanting thing this side of Heaven.

Alexis

Did it? For most of those centuries, especially after Latin became a "dead language" - did the congregation actually pray the Mass or simply pray devotionals like the Rosary while watching the Mass being prayed in front of them?


It was a reaction, but a bit of an over-reaction I think. Why get rid of the Sarum, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Milanese, Dominican, Carthusian, etc? Are they any less pleasing, devote, beautiful, or Traditional?


I too find the Tridentine Liturgy to be beautiful, but I would be able to follow it much better if the majority of it was in the local language, and some common prayers in Latin (such as retaining the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, Pater Noster, Et cum spiritu tuo, etc..)

The addition of St. Joseph to the Canon was done during Vatican II, when it was quite obvious that major changes were happening.

You didn't find the Mass frozen in the nineteen-fifties? Pity you didn't attend Don Bosco High School - or actually you should give thanks that you didn't attend Don Bosco High School. I did, and if I were to describe to you the experience of Low Mass, morning after morning, you would swear that I was making up fibs. Unfortunately I would not be making up fibs; there's no need.

"The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven"? Thank you, Father Faber - but give me the Byzantine Liturgy, please.

What, may I ask is "the Protestant heresy"? Protestantism is scarcely a unitary phenomenon; it boasts more conflicting heresies than one can shake the Summa at.



This all-too-common error always brings a smile to my face. "Kyrie eleison" is not Latin at all; it's Greek!

I've been defending the right of those who want the Tridentine Mass to have it. But it's possible to get the impression that these same people are still pushing the praestantia latini ritus - which Vatican II, thank God, liberated us from.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge, bless.


Of course the Kyrie is Greek! I meant to put an emphasis on it's retention, not it's Latinism.

But in the Syriac Churches, we pronounce it as Kurieleison (or Quriyelaison) anyhow!