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I agree, Amado. Theology aside, this is just my opinion, OK? No thumbscrews, please! But I think the reason for the Crucifixion was *not* to satisfy some legalistic requirement of a distant, angry God - but to show us God loves us SO MUCH that there's nothing He won't do - up to and including allowing Himself to be brutally executed - to make sure there is no obstacle between us and Him. And read the parable of the Prodigal Son, and the one about the workers hired at the end of the day getting the same pay as those hired at the beginning. Don't those show a loving Father who goes out of His way to be generous - even to those who don't seem to deserve it? Somehow I find it hard to believe that a God like that would condemn someone simply for not believing a particular system of religion. It just seems out of character. 
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Dear Christine:
A theologian neither am I!
But what roils my peaceful mind is the unmasked implication that the "Defender of the Faith" and probably the main contributor to Dominus Iesu, then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI, is a closet heretic? :rolleyes:
Amado
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Dear Friends, I too am happy the Roman Church no longer resorts to thumb-screws . . . There was a time when even the Eastern Catholic Churches were under the same Vatican Congregation that dealt with the Inquisition. The Roman Church seemed to be saying that even if you believed the same as she, the Latin Rite was superior after all . . . The thumb-screws were a bad thing and I'm happy some of you are finally over them! Alex
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Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
as an Eastern Catholic who is in communion with the Holy See (I know, that was sort of redundant), I think I need to come to Rome's defence. I am glad that Alex put it well that God owes us nothing, but yes, He does love us. the whole point of who is worthy of Heaven and who is not becomes pointless in this light of Him owing us nothing. there is a wideness in God's mercy, and yes, it is up to His Son, Who after all went through the hell of Gethsenmane and Calvary to tell each of us "enter into the joy..." or "depart from me, I never knew you". America is infected with the idea of cheap grace, a heresy that too many of of the popular televangelists are telling people, and I am afraid for these people who buy into it. I do remember reading that Vatican ll did hold that there are elements in non Christian faiths that are true and holy, and as one who has done a ton of reading in comparative religions, I can say yes. however, the same Council held that the Church is still obligated by Christ Himself to preach that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him (Christ). I can not see Jesus as lying when He said that He would not cast out any who comes to Him in faith, so I do see that it is Christ Who saves, and not the right brand of Christianity. we are saved through grace by faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not of works lest any of us should boast. instead of any of us presuming who will get there and who will not, I suggest that we look to Him with fear and trembling, not because He is harsh, but because we are sinners, I, the chief amongst you.cheap grace and playing God with others are nothing but the different side of the card of mankind's presumption when it comes to Eternal life.
Much Love,
Jonn Well said, John ! -- John
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The Holy Father was reiterating the teaching of the Fathers of the 2nd Vatican Council: ..., those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 16)
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Originally posted by Amadeus:
Dear Christine:
A theologian neither am I!
But what roils my peaceful mind is the unmasked implication that the "Defender of the Faith" and probably the main contributor to Dominus Iesu, then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI, is a closet heretic? :rolleyes:
Amado Hee hee! Ah yes - I hadn't even thought of that! Good one!  This thread reminded me of an old poem which is still reprinted on holy cards: Surprise in Heaven
I dreamt death came, the other night
And Heaven's gate swung wide,
An Angel with halo bright
Ushered me inside.
And there! To my astonishment,
Stood folks I'd judged and labeled;
As "quite unfit"; of "little worth";
And "spiritually disabled."
Indignant words rose to my lips,
But never were set free,
For every face showed stunned surprise--
Not one expected ME!
--anonymous
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Theist Gal,
I like that poem very much. Thank you for sharing it.
Cyril
Cyril
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Sounds reminiscent of a modified apokatastasis...No, it is only through Christ that victory is gained over death and that involves a conscious decision for His Church. How the Spirit blows elsewhere is not for anyone else to define...The Fathers repeated, "extra ecclesiam nulla salus," for the Church being Christ Himself is salvation. There is one Just Judge, and His name isn't Bendeict XVI.
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Originally posted by kollyvas:
How the Spirit blows elsewhere is not for anyone else to define... I completely agree with that statement.
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Ray, no offense, but in reading your posts in this thread you seem to deliberately interpret Western theology in the most negative way possible and then compare it to the best and most charitable interpretation of Eastern theology. Your purposeful reduction of Roman Catholic theology to �A� (no hope for the unbaptized) or �B� (don�t worry just be good) is extremely unfair. �C� (can�t speculate who is saved) is legitimate for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy but it is still a one line summary. I highly recommend actually reading the Church Fathers on these issues. I think that is a fair critique of my post. Certainly I did not put enough effort into what I wrote to get my point across. Let me try to clarify in more detail. Before Vatican II many and I can�t under emphasize the word many Catholic believed that those outside of the Church could not be saved. This assumption may be incorrect and the reason for Vatican II was to clarify this point. I am not trying to debate that point here, but I would like to make the point that many Catholics did hold that belief. If you look at the Baltimore Catechism it states, 320. Why is Baptism necessary for the salvation of all men?
Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ has said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41) Another example can be found in how RCC�s buried their dead. I took this quote directly from the official website of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. It states, In times past, the unbaptized and those who died by suicide were buried in separate adjoining land because they could not be buried in consecrated ground. Now we believe God alone should judge for God alone knows each person's heart of hearts. [ cemeteries.org] I believe we can lay a foundation now that many Catholics prior to Vatican II believed (rightly or wrongly) that none RCC�s could not go into heaven. Although simply stated as option �A� I think we can fairly state that many in the Church accepted this simple definition of who can be saved. Regarding option B and your statement, �I don�t see why this is so hard to understand.� It is not that I don�t find this hard to understand it is that I don�t think it is the Churches place to tell people they can go to heaven if they don�t accept Christ. Once you go down that road then what you are really saying is that you don�t need to bother with Baptism etc. just be a good person. This is not the message of the Gospel. Let�s say for the sake of argument that the quote above is a correct quote (knowing that we can�t establish that point here); the Pope had left out the formula for salvation spelled out in Dominus Jesu. This is the reason why I am concerned about the quote. In reality this article is mostly the result of bad journalism not bad theology.
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Ray wrote:
Before Vatican II many and I can�t under emphasize the word many Catholic believed that those outside of the Church could not be saved. This assumption may be incorrect and the reason for Vatican II was to clarify this point. I am not trying to debate that point here, but I would like to make the point that many Catholics did hold that belief. There is a difference between what individuals may believe and what the Church teaches officially. There are many, wholesome and good Catholics in Detroit who believe their coach should not have been fired last week. That doesn�t make what they believe carry the weight of Church Teaching. One must always discern between the two. Ray Quoted the Baltimore Catechism:
320. Why is Baptism necessary for the salvation of all men?
Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ has said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41) This is a perfectly truthful statement from the Catholic and Orthodox perspective. It is and does not claim to be an exhaustive presentation of either Church�s teaching on the matter of salvation. One needs to look at each particular statement within the context of the Church�s whole tradition. The necessity of baptism for salvation must be looked at (at least) in light of 2 Timothy 2:5: �An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.� Those who come to Christ must follow the rules He has laid down (He has commanded us to be baptized). Those who have not come to Christ are treated differently. They can be compared to athletes who not only don�t know the rules of the race but don�t even know they are in the race. Ray wrote:
I believe we can lay a foundation now that many Catholics prior to Vatican II believed (rightly or wrongly) that none RCC�s could not go into heaven. Although simply stated as option �A� I think we can fairly state that many in the Church accepted this simple definition of who can be saved. But your original accusation of heresy was against the Holy Father. You did not begin a discussion about �what many or most people may have believed�. Your new statement is irrelevant to the discussion. Ray wrote:
It is not that I don�t find this hard to understand it is that I don�t think it is the Churches place to tell people they can go to heaven if they don�t accept Christ. Once you go down that road then what you are really saying is that you don�t need to bother with Baptism etc. just be a good person. This is not the message of the Gospel. Look at Matthew 25:31-46. What is the basis of judgment here? It does not speak of faith or baptism but speaks of what is really written upon the heart of every man. What you are trying to do is to reduce faith to a simplistic level. Evangelical Christians often reduce faith (and salvation) to a simple decision. The Church teaches that faith is necessity for salvation but also knows that 1) faith is a way of life and not just a mental construct and 2) in the end it is not even our faith that saves us but, rather, God�s mercy. Pope Benedict stated: "With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ."
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But your original accusation of heresy was against the Holy Father. Let's be clear I never accuse the Holy Father of heresy. I merely asked the question if the alleged statement conformed to Church teachings. There was no word games being played and my statements were quit clear. I sure hope this is a case of bad journalism. However, if it is a direct quote is this heresy? Regarding salvation prior to Vatican II in which you stated, There is a difference between what individuals may believe and what the Church teaches officially. There are many, wholesome and good Catholics in Detroit who believe their coach should not have been fired last week. That doesn�t make what they believe carry the weight of Church Teaching. One must always discern between the two. I can't verify that it wasn't the official teaching of the Church prior to Vatican II. I recogonize that my quote is a weak defense but it does show that there was doubt about the definition even by clergy. Now we believe God alone should judge for God alone knows each person's heart of hearts. This confusion is only fueled by Pontifical Encyclicals like MIRARI VOS in which the Holy Father Pope Gregory XVI states, 13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that "there is one God, one faith, one baptism"[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that "those who are not with Christ are against Him,"[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore "without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate."[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: "He who is for the See of Peter is for me."[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: "The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?"[20] [ papalencyclicals.net] I am not one to judge what is or is not Church teaching. There are several priests, deacons, and I have been told Bishops on this forum. Clarification of Holy Father's statement was always my intentions. My second intention was point out the possible bad journalism done by certain "Catholic" news organizations.
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Dear Ray,
If you think there is some magical uniform answer in Orthodox regarding the state of the unbaptised, you are mistaken. Some theologians speculate that one cannot know, others that they are damned, and the third that they too will be saved. There may even be a fourth opinion previously unheard.
Here's one example from the Ecumenical Patriarchate's page:
Stillborn or unbaptized children are not given a Church burial, but a Trisagion Prayer may be read at graveside.
From another GreekOrthodox site:
Baptize your baby as soon as possible after the forty-day blessing. (See Birth of Children) Baptism is essential for entering heaven and participating in other church sacraments. Since the fate of an unbaptized individual is unknown, parents who neglect to have their child baptized bear a heavy responsibility.
A third opinion is of St. Gregory of Nyssa:
This "superior life which a person had from the beginning" and which "gives rise to knowledge of God (gnosis) and participation (metousia) in him" is a fundamental theme pervading all the works of Gregory of Nyssa. Those who have progressed in virtue will enjoy the fruits of virtue according to their practice of it. On the other hand, infants who have never "tasted" virtue will nevertheless see God according to their limited capacity. Thus the righteous and infant will both participate in the beatific vision despite their different conditions. It should be noted that both individuals are not afflicted by evil. The reason for their participation in God rests upon the fact that every person is made in his divine image and likeness, a biblical theme based upon Genesis 1.27, which is a favorite theme of Gregory of Nyssa: "And God made man in his image; in the image of God he created him."
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If you think there is some magical uniform answer in Orthodox regarding the state of the unbaptised, you are mistaken. Some theologians speculate that one cannot know, others that they are damned, and the third that they too will be saved. There may even be a fourth opinion previously unheard. My point exactly! Is it wise to speculate on whether or not a person outside the Church can go to heaven? Don't we Christians have enough to worry about with regards to working out our own salvation with fear and trembling?
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we declare, proclaim, and define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. From the Bull Unam Sanctum [ shrine.com] The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire �which was prepared for the devil and his angels,� (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.�From the Bull Cantate Domino [ catholicism.org]
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