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I sure hope this is a case of bad journalism. However, if it is a direct quote is this heresy?

Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope [zenit.org]

Dear Ray,

Vatican II said the same thing.

FYI, do you believe in a God who condemns millions of people who never heard of Jesus or His Church to an eternal hell?

Alex

Orthodox Catholic:

Are you saying that God HAS to save all those millions of people who haven't heard of Jesus Christ? Are you putting obligations on the Divine Nature? Are you saying that God owes us something?

I like Orthodox theology:
It's like the Catholic Church is pushing me into the Orthodox Church. Some times I feel like they are kicking me.

No, by choosing your own interpretation of Catholic teaching, instead of the Church's self-understanding, you are charting your own course.
-D

Which interpretation would that be?

Would it be A or B:
A.) 2,000 years of if your not baptized = no hope.
B.) Don't worry about it be a good person.

No thanks, C makes more sense:
C.) We can't speculate on who is "saved" outside of Orthodoxy

Dear Adversus and Ray,

Actually, I have no way of knowing God's Mind on this matter.

God owes us nothing.

But He certainly does love us.

At least, so I've read.

When has either the Catholic or Orthodox Church ever said that people who die without baptism etc. are absolutely damned for eternity?

Clearly, if a person has come to believe in Christ and His Church and then REFUSES to be baptised and live in accordance with His Will for us through the Church, then that person is certainly on a very evil course that can only end, without repentance, in an eternal separation from God and Heaven.

It is up to God alone to determine that, however.


Alex

Wait a minute before everyone goes off half cocked.
When the Church says that, #1 it never means that anyone can be saved outside of Jesus Christ nor for that matter the Church. * Read Domine Jesus ( Ratzinger was one of the theologians behind defining this Church teaching.
I can remember that the Church received a lot of criticism buy people who had little understanding of what was behind that document.

No you are condemning the Church for saying that those outside its visible structure can be saved.
Make up your minds!


The Church has always maintained even before Vatt II that those outside the visible structure of the Church and even Christiandom can be saved.
1. If they have never heard the gospel preached to them and were not ivincibly and culbably ignornrant of Christ.
2. This is never accomplished outside of Christ, his grace, nor His Church but through Him and through it.

(In other words we never know what goes through an unbeliever at the time of death nor for that matter any soul. God's grace and mercy are open to all.

Thank you for clarifying that. I agree absolutely with what you say.

All I can say to my friend Ray is that some Orthodox believe that you can be saved outside the Church, others don't. It's not as if they defined anything about it. Careful with trying to pin down what you think Orthodoxy believes, and what it actually believes. You could end up entering the Orthodox Church and not know what you are getting yourself into.

Alex,

Well, the RCC has. Why do you think there are cemetaries that have "baptized" people in it and another cemetary for "unbaptized"?

That is not the point the document that drives RCC theology is, if I am not mistaken, Dominus Jesus. In a nutshell, states if through "no mistake of there own..." This is in contrast to the allege quote by the Pope above.

The point being that the RCC has gone down a slipper slope in my opinion with proclaiming who and who can not get into heaven. Again, the Orthodox theology makes more sense to me. The west is again trying to theorize something which can't be. It is a mystery no matter how well you try to define it.

Ray,

This is no different than what Pope Pius IX taught when he spoke of "invincible ignorance." Those who, through no personal fault, do not know Jesus or that His Church is necessary for salvation will not, because of that, be condemned. The pope was very clear in the statement he made that those people who did not know Christ but tried to live in accordance with the light that God gave them may be saved. There is nothing heretical about the statement or the teaching.

Fr. Deacon Edward

The problem with the quote above is that it is lacking the "invincible ignorance" statement. As a result, it leaves itself open to different interpretations.

Again there is a fundamental point that seems to be missing in this conversation. That is, can the RCC state some one outside of the Church can go to heaven? For me the answer is no. The position that makes sense to me is that we can neither confirm nor deny some one outside the Church can go to heaven.

The fundamental point is certainly not missing from the conversation. Can someone outside the Church go to heaven? Yes, of course it is possible. All things are possible with God. Will this person outside the Church go to heaven? Maybe. That�s up to God and we trust in His mercy. I don�t see why this is so hard to understand. There is no real difference in Eastern and Western theology on this matter, even if their respective theologies are presented differently.

Ray, no offense, but in reading your posts in this thread you seem to deliberately interpret Western theology in the most negative way possible and then compare it to the best and most charitable interpretation of Eastern theology. Your purposeful reduction of Roman Catholic theology to �A� (no hope for the unbaptized) or �B� (don�t worry just be good) is extremely unfair. �C� (can�t speculate who is saved) is legitimate for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy but it is still a one line summary. I highly recommend actually reading the Church Fathers on these issues.

Admin

If Our Lord, Jesus Christ, died for the sins of ALL humanity and redeemed us ALL by His resurrection, why is it so hard for some to accept and believe that those ignorant of Him and His Church also are redeemable or are worthy of God's mercy?

Amado

as an Eastern Catholic who is in communion with the Holy See (I know, that was sort of redundant), I think I need to come to Rome's defence. I am glad that Alex put it well that God owes us nothing, but yes, He does love us. the whole point of who is worthy of Heaven and who is not becomes pointless in this light of Him owing us nothing. there is a wideness in God's mercy, and yes, it is up to His Son, Who after all went through the hell of Gethsenmane and Calvary to tell each of us "enter into the joy..." or "depart from me, I never knew you". America is infected with the idea of cheap grace, a heresy that too many of of the popular televangelists are telling people, and I am afraid for these people who buy into it. I do remember reading that Vatican ll did hold that there are elements in non Christian faiths that are true and holy, and as one who has done a ton of reading in comparative religions, I can say yes. however, the same Council held that the Church is still obligated by Christ Himself to preach that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him (Christ). I can not see Jesus as lying when He said that He would not cast out any who comes to Him in faith, so I do see that it is Christ Who saves, and not the right brand of Christianity. we are saved through grace by faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not of works lest any of us should boast. instead of any of us presuming who will get there and who will not, I suggest that we look to Him with fear and trembling, not because He is harsh, but because we are sinners, I, the chief amongst you.cheap grace and playing God with others are nothing but the different side of the card of mankind's presumption when it comes to Eternal life.
Much Love,
Jonn