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Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

But I thought Vatican II changed nothing of our Faith, so what's the big deal? I thought it was just trying to re-formulate the faith for the modern world (with arguable success), not change its substance.

What, then, was defined by Vatican II?

Exactly, the idea that those not outside the visible Church could be saved was pronounced by Blessed Pius IX in the encyclical Quanto conficiamus moerore: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." It was agin pronounced by Pope Pius X11 in excommunicating Fr. Feeney.

You can read the Constitutions and documents of Vatican II here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

They are quite clear in their teaching.

Fr. Deacon Lance

My experience is a lot of confusion surrounding this issue has to do with invincible ignorance. There seem to be a lot of definitions floating around as to what it really means. This quote for instance:

Would show while the baby is not at fault, the Lutheran theologian is, and presumably is going to suffer damnation because he has been confronted with the �truths� of the Papacy, yet has rejected them. The same would go for Orthodox believers in the same situation. You can however quite easily find counter examples and statements that would leave one believing that even knowledge of these �truths� does not place one outside of the arc of salvation.

Perhaps just as confusing is the idea of invincible ignorance in the world we live in now. It is nearly impossible to believe there are many people left in the world in the age of mass communications, Internet and so on that aren�t aware of the basic claims of Christianity and the Roman Church in particular (at least many people beyond childhood age that is). It is I think an uncontroversial statement to say the vast majority of Moslems, Hindus, Atheists, Pagans, Jews and so on are pretty familiar with the claims of Christianity. That makes invincible ignorance a fairly hard doctrine to put much stock in.

I found this an interesting quote

Yes, I agree it appears that way. Perhaps those outside of the church may be saved, I don�t know and I can�t speculate. I think the real problem of our situation in the modern world is we all want to affirm how everyone is okay as they are. The fact is we are not okay, and we are all laboring under the crushing burden of sin brought about by the Fall. Salvation is both a process of God reaching us and us reaching for God. Can we be �saved� when we turn from God�s glorious resurrection but live �moral� lives? What is salvation then? Does God �save� us against our will?

Salvation ultimately is difficult and it is perilous. We get to it through the narrow gate. Consider the lives of the Desert Fathers who upon their death beds despaired of the smallest sins.

That in my opinion is what our church leaders should be telling us.

Andrew

I understand why you feel that way, Lawrence. But here's another way to look at it: We are not telling nonbelievers that it's possible for them to be saved without Christ - of course we know that salvation only comes through Christ.

However, what we're saying to believers is - don't despair of anyone's salvation - don't stop praying for that beloved friend or relative who died outside the Church. Never give up hope.

It's what the business world calls a "two tracked message".

"What I find disturbing here, in my often simplistic way of thinking, is that it appears we're telling Moslems, Jews and others that 'You don't really have to believe that Jesus is the Saviour.'"

Not at all, as we are not telling the Jews or Moslems anything. These documents are aimed at the Faithful and are telling them that we can have faith that, through God's infinite mercy, those who do not recognize Christ, through no fault of their own yet lead lives in accordance with his commandments, can still be saved by Christ. Our duty to witness the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the non-Christian remains unchanged.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Check out the parable in Matthew 20 where the Lord compared the kingdom of heaven to a householder who hired laborers for his vineyard. In that parable there were laborers who came in the morning and worked all day, some who came at the third hour, and more at the sixth and ninth hours. At the end of the day the man paid the same wage to everyone, regardless of whether they started work in the morning or afternoon. When the laborers complained the answer given them was: ��Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?' So the last will be first, and the first last."

How does this apply to the issue of who can be saved? The Lord teaches us that we must believe in His Son so that we may be saved. But the Lord�s mercy knows no limits. He can save those whom He will save. If the Lord chooses to save someone who has never heard His Name then He is free to do so. Consider that person like the laborer who would have come at the final hour if only he knew that there was a master looking to hire him.

Just a simple thought here.....To KNOW Christ and to reject him WILL lead one to damnation. There are many who label themselves "Christian" who do not know Christ.

Sinner that I am I strive to know Christ.

There are those who live their lives far more charitably than I who are not Christian and do not know Christ. Do they not deserve salvation?

Bill

Your heart is in the right place, Bill! But before one of the resident theologians points this out, none of us "deserves" salvation - it's a totally gratuitious gift!

Thank God, because there's no way *I* could "deserve" it!

I think it is important to remind ourselves of something that I am sure was brought up earlier in the thread, but bears repeating:

It is often the case that, upon hearing that those outside visible communion with the Church can be saved, people will exclaim something like "Well then whats the point in being Christian/Catholic/Orthodox?

What is being forgotten here is that in order for ANYONE to be saved, we have to be in a state of grace. To this end, being within the fold is an indescribable blessing, because only within the Church can the Sacraments be found, which heal us, strengthen us, and bring us into deeper and more abiding communion with the Most Holy Trinity. That gift is priceless, and alone is more than enough to motivate evangelization and make us realise the gift of the Church

"Invincible ignorance" applies to much more than information. There is also the reality of the weight of cultural and personal factors.
Let's say you are raised as a Hasidic Jew; from infancy you are taught that Christ is a false Messiah, and your mind is filled with falsehoods about Him. You may know that Christians believe He is the Son of God, that He supposedly died for the sins of mankind, that He is supposed to have risen from the dead. However, the people who loved and nourished you, the dearest folks in your life, have taught you that He was a fraud.
And let's say in addition that the people whom you have known to be Christian have treated you with scorn, have called you names and harassed you, perhaps even beaten you
.
Are you responsible for "rejecting Christ"?
At the same time, you are striving to serve G--, to obey His laws and serve Him as best you can.

Or say you are, like an uncle of mine, born into an Appalachian family where the father beats you while quoting the Bible.
Are you damned forever for the very human reaction of not wanting anything to do with this "God"?

Or say you are an ordinary American secularist, and your only contact with Christianity is the obnoxious televangelists you see on TV, or [ahem] the narrow minded zealots you encounter on the internet. Nothing about these people is remotely attractive. Are you judged for not believing what they espouse?

There is much complexity in the human condition, and I for one am glad I belong to a Church that recognizes this.

-Daniel

And by the way, am I the only one who is offended by the words "papal" and "heresy" being joined in the title to this thread?

Daniel,

No you are not the only one, and I think that has been the premise from a few of the posters earlier on in the thread.

If Ray S wants to change the title, I think either myself or the admin can accomodate him. This he can do by PM to either one of us. Otherwiswe it will stand.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Invincible ignorance, given the definitions presented here, again to me as I've seen elsewhere can be stretched to mean nearly anything.

Andrew

Andrew

You are so right !