www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Papal heresy?

Shlomo Ray waLkhoolkhoon,

How many people here have heard the term Noahide Laws? It is from the foundation of these laws that the Church believes that Salvation is possible for anyone, even if they are not Christians. These laws were established by God, and given to Noah. To quote:

Salvation and Conversion. You do not have to be a Jew to attain your rewards in the hereafter. Jews are required to fulfill a wide range of commandments (613 in fact) in addition to the first ten. Non-Jews are only required to observe the seven Noahide Laws from Genesis 8. These include avoiding the following:

1: Idolatry;
2: Blasphemy;
3: Homicide;
4: Illicit sexual relations;
5: Theft;
6: Eating the limb of a living creature;
7: Failing to establish courts of justice.

Because of the accessibility to salvation, Jews don't actively seek out converts and converts must convince a board of Rabbis that they are sincere and wish to accept the responsibility to fulfill their responsibilities to God.

Therefore, the Church has used this bedrock Theological point, and explained it with the help of the Holy Spirit.

This is why no modern Apostolic Church says that it is only their way or the highway (to hell).

Also, please forgive is this is a little splintered, I just had 4 teeth pulled.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

First, your accusations were very much of heresy.

Second, to apply your logic consistently it appears that you must also condemn those Orthodox bishops and theologicans who have speculated upon the salvation of the non-baptized. It would be very nice for you to be consistent and condemen the way you have condemed the popes.

It is very easy to pull a quote from here or there but one must put it in the context of the entire teaching of the Church. In other places the Church clearly speaks of the membership in the Catholic Church of all humans, albeit an imperfect membership for those who do not know Christ through no fault of their own.

In this case they aren�t simply quotes pulled from random places. They are extracts of Papal Bulls, the second part of a council the Roman church considers ecumenical (and which the Orthodox Church rejected). What they clearly state is visible membership in the church including fealty to the Roman Pontiff are prerequisites to salvation.

The Bulls are clear enough in their meaning, and I would say totally lack the later (and I would consider problematic) qualifications added to the teaching. Whether these statements when compared with other dogmatic pronouncements display either legitimate and complementary development, or flat contradiction, is probably a different argument.

I disagree strongly. The quotes you have posted are certainly pulled from random places. You could easily have found other quotes that seem to say exactly the opposite. The papal bulls are almost always a reaction to some specific event in the Church. They must be seen in light of the circumstances they are responding to as well as in the light of the entire teaching of the Church. Very often one finds that a particular papal bull was speaking to a particular issue. Also very often one finds that the Church will recognize the flaws in a particular expression (something can be perfectly true but yet be very incomplete).

In this case we can see the Church over the years coming to a conclusion that a theological expression that is inclusive can be more effective at conveying Catholic theology than an identical theological expression written in terms of exclusion.

Look to the whole corpus of Church Teaching.

They are not pulled from �random� places. They are significant pronouncements on the teaching of EENS which this whole thread is about. They are quite relevant because I believe someone said in this thread something to the effect that the idea that those outside the visible boundaries of the church cannot be saved has never been a part of the teaching of the Roman church. Clearly it has been a part of the teaching of the church at one time, and even if formulated in response to a specific event or issue, such a teaching by nature has a wide reaching implication.

Whether these individual Bulls are consistent or contradictory with the wider body of what the Magisterium has taught is a different issue, but that�s why you need to look at what each pronouncement says. You can�t say the whole corpus of what the church teaches is right if you don�t look at the individual pieces.

That I would assume is what the thread starter is mulling over.

Rilian,

I will continue to disagree on the larger point. Perhaps you posted what you posted not at random but on purpose, because it supported the point you wished to make. But you offered no context on the reason for that particular bull as well as no context within a fuller expression of Church Teaching. You cannot call it a separate issue and dismiss it with such ease. Looking at the �individual pieces� means looking at more than just one piece. It means looking at everything that makes up the whole corpus of Catholic Teaching.

Admin

A few random questions, for those who say nonbelievers can't be saved:

1. When you are standing before the awesome judgement seat of God, which do you hope will prevail in your own personal case - His justice or His mercy? If you answer "mercy", don't you also hope it prevails in everyone else's case as well - even nonbelievers?

2. Do you pray for the souls of deceased nonbelievers? If so, why? What's the point, if you don't believe they can be saved?

3. If you were God and you had your choice of spending all eternity with Mark Twain (a nonbeliever) or Jerry Falwell (a believer), which would you prefer?

Rilian, forgive the length of my post, but you are clearly quoting the document out of context. Here are just a few similar excerpts that show the rigorist position NOT to be the position of the Catholic Church:
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The Apostolic Fathers against the rigorist interpretation:

Pope St. Clement of Rome
"Let us go through all generations and learn that in generation after generation the Master has given a place of repentance for those willing to turn to him. Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God" (1 Clement, no. 7 [AD 95]).
(St. Clement I was ordained by the Apostle St. Peter.)

St. Justin Martyr
We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos} were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

St. Irenaeus of Lyons
The Church "is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them... We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come... Resist them [the rigorists] in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons." (Against Heresies, Book III [circa 200 A.D.]).
(St. Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle St. John.)

Clement of Alexandria
"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).
(Clement speaks about salvation before Jesus, but it does allude to some kind of baptism of desire.)

Origen of Alexandria
"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).
(Origen speaks about salvation before Jesus, but it does allude to some kind of baptism of desire.)

St. Augustine
"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44-48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13-19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).
(Feeneyite rigorists deny salvation for Catechumens.)
"The apostle Paul said, 'As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him' [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body�. All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:28 [39]).
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The Council of Trent against the rigorist interpretation:

Session Six, Chapter Four:
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
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The Popes just before the Vatican II Council against the rigorist interpretation:

Pope Bl. Pius IX
We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment (no. 7).
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)
"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord" (no. 7).
On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam)

The Catechism of Pius X
Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
(The Sacraments, Baptism - Question 17)

Pope Pius XII
��those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church ... by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer� (Mystici Corporis 103).
��those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church ... we ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in he Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the society of glorious love� (Mystici Corporis 103).
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The Vatican II Council against the rigorist interpretation:

Vatican II: Decree on the Church's Missionary Activity
Hence, those cannot be saved, who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded through Jesus Christ, by God, as something necessary, still refuse to enter it or remain in it (Ad Gentes Divinitus, no. 7).
(People who knowingly reject the fact that the Catholic Church is God�s plan for salvation cannot be saved.)
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Lumen Gentium, no. 16).


Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

firstly i always thought that the Church(Catholic, and (eastern)Orthodox)taught only the saints were the souls we knew were in heaven?the men and women who by the grace of the holy spirit are revealed as being in the state of heaven.

God is our judge, and he loves us all equally, and judges us individually and knows who were are personally and our circumstances. the Catholic church teaches that we all have the obligation to evangelize and tell all peoples about the gospel, because Christ wills it and for us to be saved by him, however there are people still to this day who have no clue of him and the opportunity was never there for them to enter communion with our Lord. does that make them animals and unable to be saved? NO ! God is their judge and will judge accordingly. the Church teaches baptism in 3 ways. original(by water and the holy spirit, made with a solemn profession of faith), desire(the good thief dismas, those outside the realm of "christiendom" who live christ-like lives), and by blood(martyrdom)

SALVATION IS A GIFT ! by God's grace

The Church is conscious of the fact that salvation "can only be attained in Christ through the Spirit. But it cannont fail to reflect, as mother and teacher, on the fate of men created in the image of God, and in a particular way of the weakest of those who still do not have the use of reason and freedom.

It is clear that God is a merciful God "who wishes none to perish". St Augustine once made a very wise statement "there are those who are in the Church who are not of the Church and there are those outside the Church who are in the Church. Leave the salvation question up to God who alone is all knowing.

Stephanos I

"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith," says Benedict XVI.



these people are those who never heard the truth of the holy gospel or had access to the sacramental church, however that does not make them scot free, there has to be desire for them to seek the truth, this was definately common in past history.

an example, the natives americans pre-columban era, would have had no way possible of knowing Christ and his Catholic church, but God did infact love them and knew them and in providence received the faith, although not in the best conditions in most cases which i believe was by design as well(i.e. the miricle of guadalupe)

The Catholic Church has never reversed its belief that "extra ecclesiam non salus" that is a truth that will remain forever. I am sure it is a position that is in total harmony with the Orthodox East. The question is not "outside the Church there is no salvation." but how those who are outside the visible unity of the Church may be saved. And saved they can be. However there is no way that I would not believe "extra ecclesiam non salus".

Stephanos I

PS I would suggest gentlemen that you dust off your copy of "Domine Jesus" and read what it actually has to say rather than what it is proported to mean. Respectfully.

T Gal:

Jeff: Thank you for taking the time to list those quotes. You have done us all a great service. So-called traditionalists are the proof-texting fundamentalists of the Catholic [and Orthodox] world...

-Daniel

I think the most recent posts by both Stephanos and Mateusz are very insightful:

The Catholic Church does indeed teach Extra Ecclesiam Non Salus, but it teaches this as a middle way between rigorism and universalism. The point of the teaching is that for everyone who is saved, they are saved by Christ through the Church. Whether the person is in visible union or not.

This tenant is accepted in both the East and the West, and to deny even the possibility of salvation for all who are not in visible union, as the rigorists do, is to deny the ancient Tradition of our faith.

Also, Iconophile, I'm humbled by your warm thanks, it really wasn't as much effort as it appears - a year ago I helped a friend compile a document against the Rigorists and the Feeneyites, so all I had to do was find some of the things and copy paste

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff