www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall This is a Catholic Cathedral?

I must admit when I see things like this I am grateful to be a Byzantine Catholic!

http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=66e60ca5-8d46-4e6e-822d-f4dee81b6769

This is even worse than the Taj Mahony, if such is possible. One hates to be uncharitable and think about earthquakes - followed by bishops with some sense of tradition and good taste.

Um ... Blech! And wow ... that's some price tag. Want to bet the won't be able to "afford" kneelers?

We had a parish built in our old area (FL where everything is ugly) that they spent $10 million on and claimed that while they could afford a $1 million stained glass window behind the altar they couldn't afford kneelers so that the Roman Catholic parishoners who are instructed to kneel could do so.

Sad.

Here is a comment that was posted beneath that article, which sums things up rather well:


-- John

While not personally in my taste, I am sure people made such comments about the great Cathedrals of the middle ages.
Stephanos I

Although personally, I am a great fan of the Gothic style cathedral, I can understand where, in this country and era, and in a state with the climate of California, one might want to design something more light in feeling.

I think that cathedrals like the one of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., and of the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament in Alabama (the one built by Mother Angelica of EWTN) do just this--they interpret the traditional in a modern way. They use light colored marbles, gold, and mosaic. They take historically proven architectural and design motives, and simply rework them. Many Greek Orthodox Churches in this country have done that successfully in their interiors, although the exteriors are not always a success in reinvention.

I firmly believe that unless we are building skyscrapers, which are now proven modern architectural innovations in their aesthetic appeal, that we should stick with the basic shell of historical architectures. There are many talented architects who can work and innovate within those parameters. The people in charge obviously do not have respect for the past, and thus, did not ask the architect to incorporate any traditional European Catholic historical elements....(and there are so many styles to chose from, as many Catholic countries in Europe have their own style).

This church, unfortunately, looks a bit more like a luxury residential or office building, or even a mall, than a cathedral.

Alice

Schuler inspired, no doubt.

CDL

No, Alice. What it does look like is a luminously glowing nuclear reactor.

Aside from it being so heinously UGLY, that structure is NOT safe in an earthquake prone part of the country. First thing to avoid during earthquakes is glass! Yikes.

And I want to add that I've noticed that it costs a lot more money to build a butt-ugly church than it is to build a traditional church. Ironic, indeed.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

What confounds me is that Bishop Vigneron of this diocese stood up at the last Bishops conference and gave an excellent appeal for sensitivity and consideration of the Orthodox faith and relations between the two churches.

I thought so too ! It reminded me of his Crystal Cathedral.

-- John

The inside of the Cathedral nearly reduces me to tears. Perhaps there is some theological merit to this but I cannot understand it...

http://www.christthelightcathedral.org/cathedral_tour_bv.htm

While this may be brilliant for a Star Trek set, it certainly does not inspire one to think of Heaven, or our Lord, as is their claiam. I find nothing in this interior that would invoke a feeling of being in a sacred space.

Alice

looks like A OFFICE
I saw much more smaler polish new roman catholic churches
i felt there like waiting for train on peron on railway station
thank you it is not for me

Hmmm. Perhaps one day soon the Holy Theotokos will appear to a novice in the crypt of this ghastly edifice with the message "build me a beautiful church on this spot!

Fr. Serge

I don't think many of the bishops would listen to the Holy Virgin on this matter. They would have to call a group of bitter nuns who don't wear a habit to tell them to keep the ugly "church". In 50 years or so people will ask what these guys were smoking when they built that.

Probably the same stuff which gave the world Paddy's Wigwam [en.wikipedia.org] and the Taj Mahoney [en.wikipedia.org].

Me thinks that too many of these architects may be fans of Star Trek...

...or maybe they are aliens that have infiltrated our home world with the goal of making it look like their home worlds! LOL!

Bishop Vigneron, as someone else has commented, strikes me as one of the "good guys".

I wonder if this is a "trial balloon"?

This is supposed to be a sculpture of the Theotokos?
http://figure-ground.com/travel/image.php?ola_cathedral/0006

It looks like a man or a young boy. What is aesthetic and theological significance of this rendition?

Joe

This is what used to be there, before it was replaced by Taj Mahoney.

http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/la/historic/vibiana_altar40.jpeg

(sigh)

Definitely not to my particular liking, but where the Church is served, there Christ dwells.

Dear CDL,

That's what I thought. It seems to tend towards the Protestant way of worship, which is unfortunate. For the Protestants fine, they have their own way of reaching people. For the Catholics... NO! It lacks all the beauty of the surroundings, pageantry, and music, of the traditional Catholic Churches...and that's a pity.

God Bless,

Zenovia

I feel like shoving Baroque high altars down these people's throats! LOL.

Overall, however, there is becoming somewhat of an architectural renaissance and restoration in many Roman Catholic churches. Go check out Shawn Tribe's blogspot (www.thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/ [thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com]) which features these restorations/renovations regularly.

Alexis

I prefer this light: http://www.covcathedral.com/tour24_lg.htm

pax,
Catholic peasant

Dear Joe,

What a terrible rendition of our Theotokos. She seems more like Saint Joan of Arc. Why is she in medieval clothes, and why short hair? Also, why is there no head covering? How terrible! Besides, what's the point of having a statue, when no one can relate to the statue as being the Virgin Mary?

As for the Taj Mahoney, it resembles a meeting hall. Now for an Orthodox Church with a different architecture, how about this?

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/wisconsin/milwaukee/wrightgrkortho/grkortho.html

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dear Peasant,

How beautiful! What Cathedral is it?

God Bless,

Zenovia

St. Mary's Basilica Cathedral of the Assumption in Covington Kentucky.

Original Story Link [calcatholic.com]

Fantastic, finally a house of worship fitting for the Revised Divine Liturgy. When does Bishop William of Van Nuys take title and move in?

Zenovia, ah yes! The giant blue flying saucer. I used to live in Milwaukee. I've seen the Church though I've never been inside. Apparently though they replaced all of the space age icon-like pictures with real icons several years ago. Of course the historical preservation society was all peeved that they were destroying Frank Lloyd Wright's work. The priest responded, "tough!"

Joe

Now, that looked like a sacred space!

THIS is GORGEOUS!

This gives new meaning to the phrase "HOUSE of the Lord" Click on the words "slide show"...

http://www.popejohnxxiiiparish.com/

Yes, I know, I have been there a couple of times over the years. It is okay inside despite being round. The altar is visible from all vantage points. It was originally supposed to have revolving pews!!!

The old stained glass icons are kept downstairs, because they are works of art, belonging to one of the most famous architects of the United States, despite being works of art that are not particularly pleasing to the traditional Byzantine eye...though, if I remember correctly, they weren't horrific.

Frank Lloyd Wright agreed to designing the church because his wife was Russian Orthodox.

Alice

Did anyone ever see the monstrosity errected by himself JPII.
Believe it was called Nova Huta. I dont really see what architecture has to do with Orthodox Faith. Its Faith not the building.
We are after all living in a new millenium.
Stephanos I

Re: Paddy's Wigwam
This is an earlier project [holywhapping.blogspot.com], and this is what the Anglicans built [en.wikipedia.org].

Re: Taj Mahoney
This is an alternative proposal [holywhapping.blogspot.com] (post factum).

I was watching a show about India the other day on the Travel Channel and the travelers went into a B'hai "cathedral" ... on the outside it looks like a lotus flower and on the inside it looks a lot like this.

So this Cathedral is a mix between the Crystal Cathedral and a B'hai temple. And it is pretty ugly to top it all off.

Sad.

It is also interesting to note that in the book about Mother Angelica and EWTN, Raymond Arroyo mentions that Mother Angelica built the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament (including the cloister and both the upper and lower churches) for $50 million dollars. A truly beautiful sacred space that reflects the Catholic Mass and the purpose of the Mass. And it was considerably less expensive that the monstrosity in the original article.

If this thread interests you, I highly recommend reading Michael Rose's book:

"Ugly As Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces and How We Can Change Them Back Again"

Here is a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Ugly-As-Sin-C...mp;s=books&qid=1182265105&sr=8-1


Monomakh

I have been told it is an expression of the theology of the church, like the liturgy and icons.

If one is solidly, solidly, grounded in the spiritual life, surely they can reach out to Heaven and to our God even within the unembelished confines of a jail cell.

A church, however, is not supposed to be a space like that. It is supposed to be a space that transcends earth and enables those who come seeking God, and who may not be fully grounded in their faith and spiritual life, the opportunity to experience the sacred.

One of the great attractions of the Roman Catholic faith has always been the great reverence of its liturgy and sacraments, and the beautiful pageantry and spaces devoted to God.

When that is taken away, as it is in many places, one is left with nothing more than a Calvanist type temple. However, the spirituality and approach of Catholicism is very different from that of such Protestant denominations.

I know personally, the difference I felt at a RC church in the 'nouveau auditorium' shape and style which had electric candles and only a huge crucifix to decorate its space, and the difference I feel when I am in St. Patrick's Cathedral. When one enters the latter, one immediately senses that they are in a sacred and special place...a place of great hush, great reverence, great awe, and deep prayers. The holiness I have experienced in that great edifice is incomparable...tourists walking in awe and reverence, looking at all the small chapels of saints with their tasteful stone sculptural figures and real votive candles, and faithful from all walks of life, sitting, gazing, praying, meditating....

I remember the first time I brought my daughter there when she was about five years old. This little girl had already been to churches in Greece, and ofcourse in New York where we live. Upon entering, she gasped "this is the most beautiful church I have ever seen". Such is the immediate feeling of the Divine that an ecclesiastical space is supposed to invoke.

Just my two cents, because I always loved the traditional RC churches I have visited in many countries, and am dismayed that those in this country who have been born into the faith, (unlike me who is an outsider), have no love for their beautiful architectural and religious artistic patrimonies.

Alice

P.S. In Greek Orthodox churches that have mimicked the awful 1960's and 70's modern styles that the RC suburban churches embraced so readily, there have been efforts to restore touches of the traditional as much as possible. Why don't the RC churches, for instance, commission beautiful stone statuary, medieval religious tapestries, and stained glass windows, etc. to place inside the churches. The eclectic look of modern w/traditional can be done quite beautifully and successfully.

Ahh yes, the whale carcass project. I forgot that this was taking place in Oakland.

Give me 1% and I'll build them a real Cathedral.

Gordo

Zenovia,

I heard the statue referred to once as "Our Lady of Vulcan"...


Gordo

Personally, I think it looks like a Jawa Sandcrawler. I made that observation on a blog this morning, and someone created this:

[Linked Image]



Gordo

As a fan of the newer Star Trek series, I can appreciate that!

Alice

Dear Joe,

My cousin's father-in-law was the architect that approached Frank Lloyd Wright. They did not believe that he would accept the project, but he did. It seems his wife was a Russian Orthodox. My cousin said that the church cost $1,000,000, which at that time was a phenominal amount of money.

Now this should be interesting! The church, according to Wrights design, was to have four large motors turning the dome during the liturgy. Each motor would have cost $1,000,000, so it was never completed. Thank heaven!

The last time I visited, I found out that Wright was not too smart an architecture. Considering that he became well known for having designed the building that survived the Tokyo earthquake, he didn't have the sense to realize that Milwaukee doesn't have the climate to sustain a concrete dome. Every few years, they have to pay a quarter of a million dollars to have it repaired.

As for the icons on the iconostasis, I'm not too fond of the one's that were placed there by the priest. I don't recall the old one's of Frank Lloyd Wright, but some of our more current iconographer's works, would have blended better with the interior.

I know that you haven't been inside, but the church is basically all balcony. Everyone is assured of being able to see the liturgy. It holds about 1,000 people and is blue and gold...or so I recall. I think it's beautiful, although I'm not sure if it can be considered a Byzantine church.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dont get me started on the Taj. That was built in the school of architecture known as brutalism. It lives up to its name, particularly in the exterior.

What gets me about this design is how intentionally and, I think, ideologically feminine it is. The footprint makes an obvious reference and the walls are lace-like. This is just too shi-shi/foo-foo to be taken seriously.

But, considering how Easterners appreciate local autonomy, I guess we should not appeal to Rome to stop this fiasco

I think it's beautiful. I look forward to visiting one day.

As the French say: 'Chacun a son gout', (translated as 'to each their own')!!

Alice