www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization What to say to Church of Christ folks and anti-Catholic professor

Pani Rose, I'll try to do that today. Many thanks.
Indigo

As to the evaluations at the end of the semester, the best advice was offered--be honest, be precise, be factual--but don't come across as if you are venting. I've seen students who were frustrated with very good reason with a professor and really let it all out on the evaluation. And it was ignored as a person with a personal grudge. Don't be afraid to start out with the good things (if any) the prof did, and mention good things about the course. But have your say under the heading of "ways to improve the course." That might get their attention. Good luck, don't let them get you down. Remember--God is with us!

This is a violation of academic guidelines. A teacher is to teach and not to indoctrinate, particularly not to belittle his/her students (who are his customers). Because of the power differential in your relationships and the sway he/she has over the whole class, this is unprofessional and unacceptable.

If this happens to anyone, don't wait until evaluations. After bringing the matter up to the prof, if you're not satisfied, get together anyone else in the class who feels the same way and pay a visit to the dean. Feel free to consult with students rights organizations like Students for Academic Freedom or the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), too. This is a violation of your rights and of the basic responsibility of professors.

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

Dear Friends,

I've yet to know a social science professor who was NOT out to indoctrinate students . . .

During a course taught by an avowed Marxist (and former Quaker), news came that Archbishop Oscar Romero was shot while saying Mass in San Salvador.

Two weeks later, that same professor was asking all of us to attend a church service to commemorate Romero. We became friends and even discussed the rosary . . . (oh yes, when it comes to the rosary I'm a True Believer ).

He later invited our class to two more religious events (then he turned to me and winked saying, "I guess we've been infiltrated . . " )

Marxists are a push-over compared to Muslims, however . . .

Alex

there is a universe of difference between the United Church of Christ(UCC) and the CoC. the UCC ordain women, Gay and Lesbian people to the ministry, are involved in social justice issues,and have a broad spectrum of theology, albeit, a lot of UCC theologians are quite liberal. the Coc are the opposite. this is to put the differences in a nutshell.
Much Love,
Jonn

Thanks for the clarification. I thought that was so, but I wanted to make sure. I'm a journalist and one of the rules that gets pounded into our heads is: "Verify, verify, verify". If your Mom says she loves you, say "great!"and then go ask Dad. No matter what he says, go ask a third person. I just wish more of my colleagues would remember that rule. So many seem to have forgotten it.
Tim

Tim, I agree the evaluations are the best and most constructive way to handle this.
I did listen to the EWTN link and it was helpful. My classmate is definitely CoC and not UCoC.

Indigo

Dear Friends,

One of the problems I've come across in discussing the Catholic Church with such folks is that their misrepresentations of Catholic theology are so ingrained that they assume them to be correct.

One Evangelical fellow I once spoke with simply told me that Catholics "worship Mary as God."

I told him that was a heresy etc. and so he said, "So why do you do it?"

He quoted extensively from the Catholic Catechism and said that those quotes "prove" Catholics worship Mary as God etc.

Alex

Don't many Christians use the same tactics to 'prove' that Muslims believe blank, or Hindus are like blank, or that whoever believes something that they deny (because we know better than they themselves).

Alex,that's similar to the experience I had with this classmate. I could tell she was so prejudiced against liturgical churches that nothing I said would make any difference at all. Michael makes a good point. Now that I know that tactic doesn't work and is offensive to boot.

Indigo

any one can take anything out of context and make it mean what they want it to mean. Humpty Dumpty said as much. I myself have had things I said lifted out of context and construed into the most breathtaking shapes that even I could not imagine. there is no new thing under the sun.
much Love,
Jonn

There are some religions that are based on secrets and lies, where pointing out the inconsistencies in what they say they teach and what they actually do teach can be helpful. I am particularly thinking of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The Mormons are trained to lie to inquirers about their teachings, and they are based on secret societies like Masonry in which the "truth" is shared more and more as the person progresses through the ranks and ceremonies. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a real historical problem in denying the previous teachings of their church, including the unfulfilled prophecies their entire religion is founded on.

I think that proof texts have their place. They shouldn't be used as battering rams, but it is a good place to start with the books and teachings the people already accept as true. I don't fear people doing the same to me because I am confident that my Church has the answers. I would be honored to have someone wanting to discuss the Early Church Fathers' writings with me. Such proof-texting has led many people, Protestants especially, into the Church.

Slava Isusu Christu! Thanks, Michael_Thoma, for the post pointing out that we Christians, and I do mean Christians, not just Catholics, sometimes don't get it right when talking about other religions. I know some of my relatives have some pretty wild ideas of what other religions do, when I know they do not.

The other thing that I never did understand is that when trying to convince someone of another faith, a Christian (again, not just Catholic) will point to the Bible and say "but it says right here..." and then expect the other person to change their point of view! If a Hindu was trying to convert you and the Hindu pointed to a quotation from one of their holy books---would you automatically be convinced and convert? Would you throw your hands up in the air and say "Holy Cow! (no pun intended) You're right! How could I have been so wrong? All I had to do was read one paragraph from your book and I would have known I was wrong!" The natural response would be--"well, yes, it does say that. But I don't belive that your book is the word of God. So therefore, it really doesn't matter what it says in the book." Or something to those words.

Why do so many Christians in trying to convert non-Christians automatically turn to the Bible as proof they are right? If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, the Christians' entire argument is going to fail. Like building a house on mud. There's no real foundation. If the other person does not believe in the Bible, no matter what you say is going to work. And let's not even get into the inconsistencies in the Bible that someone could throw back at you. So the question remains, how do we convert others to our beliefs?

Tim

Hi, I'm new to this site, but I'm glad to stumble on this conversation. As a former member of the CoC, I thought I'd ring in. Admittedly, my opinion is biased but I'm trying to be somewhat objective.

Denomination or Not?
Each CoC is autonomous and run by a group of elders (elected, older men, who appear relatively sinless). The CoC claims very stridently that they are NOT a denomination and that they answer to no one but God. However, the independent churches get together to form colleges and universities and publishing houses, etc, all bound by the similar rules and beliefs.

Musical Instruments
As was mentioned, CoC does not use musical instruments in worship. Ironically, many CoC people are musicians, but as long as they're not worshipping while they play their instuments, that's ok. (So much for worshipping God in all that you do.)

Baptism and the Five Steps to Salvation [church-of-christ.org]
They practice Baptism of adults by immersion, and they observe the Lord's Supper every week. However, they maintain that the communion is completely symbolic. They believe that baptism leads one to be "filled with the spirit," and emphasize that COC Baptism is one of the Five Steps to Salvation. (yes, exactly five)

Hear
Believe
Repent
Confess
Baptism

Thus, there's no infant baptism, because how can an infant believe, confess, or repent? They believe that children are innocent until the "age of reason," a point at which one can determine what is right and wrong. (Although many adults will admit that they still find this difficult.)

These five steps are all scripture-based, although this formula is not set out as such in scripture. Passages supporting these steps are taken from various places in the New Testament. (See the link above for the basic outline.)

Evangelizing
The CoC loves to evangelize. While many people today shy away from outright saying that "You have to be a member of the Church of Christ or you're going to Hell," that message is still implied.

In fact, you'll probably be interested to know that they have a very well established Eastern European Mission [eem.org] organization that focuses on evangelizing to Russia & Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine. It says it's bringing the news of Jesus, but it is definitely teaching with a CoC/5 Steps slant. My mother grades for the "tests" for several of the EEM's courses).

In my opinion, CoC's mission to recreate the "perfect" church out of imperfect people is virtually impossible. I've been a member of CoC congregations that split up over reasons that seem so petty. In the quest for the perfectly restored original church, congregations split over such things as if it's ok to clap after a baptism, and if it's ok to celebrate Christmas in church since it's not technically Christ's birth day, etc.
Perhaps that's another reason for such a focus on evangelism. You have to keep rebuilding the split-up churches.

I do wish that Byzantine and Roman Catholic churches practised evangelism with at least half the ferocity that CoCs do. I, for one, would like to be reached out to or invited to find out more.

Hi Lucy,
Glad you dropped in. So how do you think it best to respond to a CoC member's preconceptions of the Catholic/Orthodox/ Church in a manner that would allow them to 'hear' what is being said? What are the CoC preconceptions concerning Catholics?

You're right;Catholics are not known for evangelizing the way other denominations and churhes are.

INdigo