|
2 members (melkman2, 1 invisible),
253
guests, and
19
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,295
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 |
Michael,
Surely, the loss of the Sarum Use was tragic. However, the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Carthusian, and Dominican rites were all retained up to their OWN dismantling post-Vatican II.
The Council of Trent specifically allowed for the existence of all Latin Christian Rites older than 200 years from the time of the Council. Now, of course the Sarum was older than that, but the fact that it disappeared was due mostly to the overzealous desire for self-Romanization among the British (as far as liturgical life was concerned, post Trent) rather than orders from Rome in any way.
Sadly, the people of these various rites largely chose to abandon them in favor of the Roman, as a show of unity against the Protestants, largely.
Fr. Serge,
No, sounds like I wouldn't have liked Don Bosco H.S., but I don't think it's fair to extrapolate on the faith and liturgical reverence of hundreds of millions off of one 1950s high school. Personal experience is personal experience, and certainly that doens't seem pleasant (I don't much like Low Mass, myself)...but personal experience isn't knowing what's going on across the nation, world, or decade. And yes, I do know your experience isn't unique, but it seems most of these stories come from the 50s, but then the 1950s were freaky in a lot of different ways!
As far as the Protestants, I should've said "the Protestant heresies," in the plural.
Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 06/20/07 05:38 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
Bill from Pgh Member
|
|
Bill from Pgh Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704 |
Dear Bill,
I'm sorry if my remarks upset you, or if I misinterpreted yours. I take your words in the spirit of fraternal correction. Thank you.
I do also follow my Shepherd and Church straight down the line, and I pray for the Pope and the Church every day.
In Christ,
Michael Dear Michael, No need for apologies, no offense taken, I felt no need for further comment. I've been known to ruffle a few feathers here myself. We are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not crazy about guitars either, :), but when in Rome...  . In Christ, Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
Bill from Pgh Member
|
|
Bill from Pgh Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704 |
"as the English would say 'ah Bless!'"
Dear Brian,
Thank You. Blessings to you to.
In Christ,
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 |
I would add that the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Carthusian, and Dominican rites all still exist, many in both pre- and post-Vatican II forms.
Alexis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 |
The Sarum Liturgy is available fairly frequently in some places in England.
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 |
Fr. Serge,
Is this done in Catholic or Anglican churches? I don't know of any Catholic oratory or parish church which offers the Sarum liturgy on a regular basis.
Also, is the entire Sarum Use available in any Catholic church (i.e. the other six Sacraments and liturgical devotions) or is it just the Holy Mass?
Alexis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,293 Likes: 17
Moderator Member
|
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,293 Likes: 17 |
"However, the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Carthusian, and Dominican rites were all retained up to their OWN dismantling post-Vatican II."
The Ambrosian is still in general use in the Archdiocese of Milan and some its suffragans, although it has adopted some revisions since Vatican II. The Mozarabic is still in use in the Toledo Cathedral and a revised ediiton has been approved by the Spanish Bishops Conference for use througout Spain. The Carthusians alone of the orders retained their distinct usage since Vatican II although one can still find the Dominican usage celebrated here and there.
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 |
Apparently a traditional Ambrosian Rite Mass was celebrated a few weeks ago in Milan, and there is currently an attempt by a few faithful to see a renewal of the traditional Ambrosian Rite.
Alexis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 |
Dear Alex, As I wrote last night: The Sarum Liturgy is available fairly frequently in some places in England. Does that imply that Catholic oratory or parish church ... offers the Sarum liturgy on a regular basis? Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 |
Believe it or not, but the much-rumoured Motu Proprio has been announced on, of all things, a Russian-language Internet news service. The article does not contain anything we didn't know already.
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3 |
Father, bless. Methinks the Vatican maybe sending rumours out to get public support to burst! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3 |
So the Muto Proprio was finally released, just a different one from the one mentioned here.
Holy Father changes rules for electing new pope
Vatican City, Jun 26, 2007 / 09:02 am (CNA).- It was announced today that the Holy Father, Benedict XVI has brought back the traditional method for electing a new Pope. Under Pope John Paul II, the procedure was changed to a series of ballots punctuated with time for reflection and prayer if a pontiff was not chosen within the first three days.
The change back to the traditional rules was made public today in a "Motu Proprio," written in Latin. In the letter, Benedict XVI restores the traditional norm concerning the majority required for the valid election of the Supreme Pontiff to two thirds of the cardinals present.
In 1996, John Paul II changed the standard in the Apostolic Constitution Universi Dominici gregis. Under John Paul II�s rules, a new Pope was validly elected by two thirds during the first three days of voting.
However, after three days of voting without an election, there would be a day dedicated to reflection and prayer, without voting. Thereafter, voting would resume for seven additional ballots, another pause for reflection, another seven ballots, another pause and yet another seven ballots. After which an absolute majority was to decide how to proceed, either for a vote by absolute majority or with balloting between two candidates. This was to happen only in the event that the cardinals arrived at the 33rd or 34th ballot without a positive result.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268 |
So the Muto Proprio was finally released, just a different one from the one mentioned here.
Holy Father changes rules for electing new pope
Vatican City, Jun 26, 2007 / 09:02 am (CNA).- It was announced today that the Holy Father, Benedict XVI has brought back the traditional method for electing a new Pope. Under Pope John Paul II, the procedure was changed to a series of ballots punctuated with time for reflection and prayer if a pontiff was not chosen within the first three days.
The change back to the traditional rules was made public today in a "Motu Proprio," written in Latin. In the letter, Benedict XVI restores the traditional norm concerning the majority required for the valid election of the Supreme Pontiff to two thirds of the cardinals present.
In 1996, John Paul II changed the standard in the Apostolic Constitution Universi Dominici gregis. Under John Paul II’s rules, a new Pope was validly elected by two thirds during the first three days of voting.
However, after three days of voting without an election, there would be a day dedicated to reflection and prayer, without voting. Thereafter, voting would resume for seven additional ballots, another pause for reflection, another seven ballots, another pause and yet another seven ballots. After which an absolute majority was to decide how to proceed, either for a vote by absolute majority or with balloting between two candidates. This was to happen only in the event that the cardinals arrived at the 33rd or 34th ballot without a positive result. The motu proprio allowing the availability and celebration of the TLM worldwide without an indult from the Ecclesia Dei Commission , through the local ordinary, has not been issued officially. The motu proprio, subject of the above-quoted article, is an amendment to the 1996 Apostolic Consitution "Universi Dominici Gregis," the special law issued by the late Pope John Paul II governing the election of the Pope.
Last edited by Amadeus; 06/26/07 04:37 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 |
This is from KathNet, in Germany. Make of it what you will: The motu proprio liberating the Tridentine Mass for the entire Catholic Church has been given to about 30 bishops from all over the world in the Sala Bologna of the Apostolic Palace by Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone
Vatican (kath.net/DieWelt/closedcafeteria.blogspot)
Die Welt report that the motu proprio liberating the Tridentine Mass for the entire Catholic Church has been given to about 30 bishops from all over the world in the Sala Bologna of the Apostolic Palace by Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone.
The bishops had been invited to Rome for that purpose. At the end of the meeting, in which the motu proprio was introduced together with a letter of explanation by Pope Benedict XVI., Pope Benedict met with the bishops. The document is about three pages long, the accompanying letter about four. From Germany, Cardinal Lehmann had been invited. The circumstances of the procedure make clear that the Pope was very interested to personally inform the bishops, in collegial manner, of the content rather than from the media. The publication of both documents will take place on July 7th. It emphasizes the unity of the Roman Rite which will consist of an ordinary and an extraordinary form which are supposed to inspire each other. The ordinary/regular form will continue to be the new rite of 1969. The extraordinary form will be the Missal of Bl. John XXIII. of 1962. ************************************************************ If the publication of these two documents actually occurs on 7 July, I may collapse from the shock. Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658 Likes: 3 |
[ Linked Image] A picture says a thousand words, eh Father! (Barekmor)
|
|
|
|
|
