www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Here we go again

This is why the 'prejudice and discrimination' which people speak of will probably and unfortunately, continue! These public acts and behaviours are what get people fed up and disgusted...

The evil one is a master of chaos and confusion! Through this particular sin (and everyone has sins), but coupled with pride about the sin, he is allowing these men to 'cut their noses off to spite their face'.

I would not be able to stand any man, homo or heterosexual if they flaunted and spoke about crass, sexual matters infront of me. Thank God, I have never been put in that situation.

Alice

To get back to the how do you socialize question...I have no problems allowing my gay friends or family in my life-if and only if they understand that my children are not to know-my justification was that my children are not their friends and therefore my kids have no need to know about their lifestyle and that I have kept my kids innocent of sex, so far, so they would not understand anyway. It worked with 2 friends but the rest told me to kiss their *** and have disappeared. I will meet partners but not in my home and it front of my kids they are friends.

I don't ask about their partners and generally they don't share info with me, but I feel that charity requires that someone with moral certitude remain in their lives so that if that moment of grace ever arrives-their is hope...I neither go out of my way to maintain contact nor to end it...

Several years ago, I would have spit on someone like myself and called me intolerant...But then 3 things happened to change my mind..1) I did the Scott Hahn Bible study on Romans and encountered Romans Chapter 1.
2) I listened to a discussion about homosexuality by a Catholic pyschologist from the late 80's and realized how accurate his descriptions were of the general mental and spiritual state of the gay man.
3) Hard to summarize...but I had a very close gay friend that I had known from highschool.. In general public, one would never know or guess that he was gay. He is extremely articulate, modest, and seemingly conservative in his moral values....but then I saw him in a gay environment and had the shock of my life...Suddenly, there was a very different person standing before my eyes and I realized how profoundly the gay environment can morph a person.

I was then forced to realize that there was and can be some very correct and accurate descriptions of the gay man in the EXodus groups or amongst devout Catholic and Protestant people. However, I have also taken all of my past experiences with friend and family with me and I know that you must love them and not have that look of distaste written acrost your face. Any show of distaste is immediately noticed by them and you instantly lose credibility. I have managed to maintain my credibility only because I am prolife acrost the board-ie. I believe all acts must be open to life. They can not argue with someone who holds that position. But the hypocrisy of the Prolife Light individual who wants to have their cake and eat it too-ie. by contracepting or sterilizing and then telling a gay guy that gay sex is wrong-is intolerable to most homosexuals.

I believe that we can only dsimantle the homosexual movement by charitable love and by ending or contraceptive mentality.

Enough of my soapbox.

Holly

"I believe that we can only dismantle the homosexual movement by charitable love and by ending or contraceptive mentality."

I practice natural family planning and a co-worker was doubtful. He can't imagine not having sex when he gets the urge and is convinced my wife will be pregnant within a few months.

His mentality is steeped in the contraceptive mentality of which you spoke.

Terry

Holly,

Then I hope you don't practice NFP, which is no more open to life than using a condom. I have some problems with some of the things you say here. First of all, I wouldn't depend on one bible study (especially if it was by Scott Hahn, whose interpretations can be questionable) and the lecture of one Catholic psychologist and simply harmonize that with one's anecdotal experience. Folks who are active in the anti-homosexual movement have just as much of an agenda as gay rights activists and are just as likely to skew things in the interest of their views. Argument from anecdotal experience is very weak. Also, none of us are always single-minded. Many sociologists have noted how it seems to be the case that we do have multiple selves. The trick is to make sure our multiple selves all remain congruent with one another.

As far as what to tell one's kids, there is no easy answer. When my son was 9, we had a good talk about sex and where babies come from because most kids are going to learn about it from their peers if the parents don't say anything. We didn't have a talk about homosexuality, but we've discussed many adult issues such as abortion, war, capital punishment, etc. Our approach has not been to shelter them and they seem to be turning out fine. But everyone's situation is different. I don't want my children to be afraid of going out into the world. I want them to be wise to what the world is really like; but I want them to be strong, courageous, and well informed. I suppose we will have to have a discussion about homosexuality at some point.

Personally, I don't like talking about homosexuals as a class of persons. While it is true that there is a gay culture, evidenced by gay magazines and journals, night clubs, residential communities, etc. I also think that every person's situation is unique. Perhaps it is because I do not feel revolted or disgusted by homosexuality that I do not see the need to make a big deal of it.

Joe

Dear Holly,

With all due respect, I think that blanket statements often create strong reactions, and therefore, hamper good relations, cooperation, and general understanding.

Holly, if you mean the 'contraceptive' mentality as another way of saying the *promiscuous mentality and lifestyle*, then I think that everyone would agree with you that it is this societal ill which has given us more homosexuality, more abortions, more disease, more premarital sex, and more immorality in general. However, the unfortunate number of abortions attained by unmarried young people is evidence to the misnomer of the 'contraceptive' mentality.

However, if you use the phrase 'contraceptive' mentality to include those practicing NFP (may not be artificial, but it is still contraceptive), and those married people in both the RC and Orthodox churches who are limiting their families for unselfish reasons with the dispensation of their priests (yes, *even* in the RC church) and spiritual fathers, then, that is an unfair blanket statement which can be deemed offensive.

I think that it is important in today's environment to be careful how we label and how we generalize. There are many good, married, Orthodox here, and we do not believe that dispensation to limit the size of the family for unselfish reasons (though please note that sterilization is considered a grave sin and never allowed because it precludes the possibility of more life), is the same as abortion, or homosexuality.

In my personal opinion, to label and generalize by these blanket terms, (which I realize are used by activists in the Roman Catholic Church), give ammunition to the moral liberals of our society because of the lack of distinctions which they make.

I think that the phrase 'promiscuous' mentality would be a much, much better one, and one which would create greater cooperation and allies from all conservative Christian faiths and other religions in this country to combat it. Only in that way might this plague of immoral influence be combatted.

Just my opinion.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice,

Very well said. I especially like the substitution of "promiscuous mentality" for contraceptive mentality. It is far more accurate I think.

Joe

Alice,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I have a question - if sterilization is a grave sin, why is contraception not? For example, if a man had a reversible vasectomy, isn't that effectively the same as contracepting for a (possibly long) time?

Is sterilization a grave sin? I know it is according to the current Catholic Catechism and I would agree that sterilization for no good reason could be a grave sin. But, in extreme circumstances, I would think that it would be a venial sin at the most (if it were a sin at all).

Joe

And by extreme circumstances I mean a situation where a woman in her late 30s or 40s who has not gone through menopause is in a situation where her physician can tell her that there is 90% chance that if she gets pregnant, she will likely die. In such a situation, I do not think that a hysterectomy would be morally wrong. It would be good, preventive medicine.

Joe

One can still get pregnant while contracepting...I know many people who were born that way.... Not so, with voluntary, selfish sterilization. I do remind you that NFP is also contraception, as its intention is exactly the same: family planning.


In Christ,
Alice

Joe,

I don't know if sterilization is considered a sin in Orthodox theology/canon - my guess is it depends on the specific personal circumstance of the individual and their confessor's take on it.

I am going by what Alice said regarding the matter, I'm assuming that her confessor and hierarch would agree.

EDIT: Oops, Alice, I think we're writing at the same time - sorry

I read this in a book which is kind of a catechism of Orthodoxy called: 465 questions about the Orthodox Faith.

I don't remember the author, but I remember he was a Greek Orthodox priest.

As for my hierarch agreeing, I would assume that the book would not have been published by our Seminary's publishing house if he did not, and I also assume that the priest would be in exile somewhere, rather than having served on the faculty of our Theological School, if he did not! LOL!

As for my confessor, I really don't know. Neither me nor my husband have been sterilized.

In Christ,
Alice

Michael,

I know that Alice is right. Whether there are no exceptions to this I don't know. Permanent sterilization for the sake of contraception would be gravely sinful. But, my personal opinion is that it may not be gravely sin in extreme circumstances, such as those I mentioned.

Joe

Alice,

Did the author say anything about extreme circumstances, such as a woman whose health or life may be endangered by pregnancy? I'm just curious about this.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Actually, I don't know, but knowing the compassionate mindset of the Church, I am sure that there are indeed exceptions...

Anyway, I found the book on google! I was close--it was 455 questions, not 465 questions! It was a very good and honest book, and Fr. Stanley Harakas is very respected in my archdiocese. I recommend trying to get the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Church-Hundred-Fifty-Five-Questions/dp/0937032565

P.S. This should make those 'quote your sources' (or I won't believe you) types happy!

P.P.S. For those who may be starting to get a little tired of my active participation the last week (because I have been in bed with a really bad flu), I would like to assure them that I am starting to feel much better and a little stronger, and therefore, hopefully, I will not be around as much in a few days.