www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Here we go again

The season is on us again

the latest march [edition.cnn.com]

what can one say - other than why do these people get their own way every time ?? Other marches get banned -- but these ??

I've yet to figure out just exactly what it is they take "pride" in.

Ah yes - agreed there

Edinburgh suffered the Scotia Pride March on Saturday - transport messed up big time for all the day.

I can't see any retailers taking pride in the marches

Imagine yourself coming to this planet from another planet and you were asked to make a choice between several options as a pattern for a new civilization. Here are your choices: A nominally Christian society whose public face included gay marriages and gay pride parades; A peaceful Muslim society whose public face was modesty. I will grant you that both are mere caricatures but the latter seems more likely than the former. Given these choices which would you choose?

I know, I know. The situation is unlikely but still it's difficult to see the virtues of Christianity with all of the static of perversity that is tolerated.

CDL

Taking pride in the fact that they can prance and nauseate all at the same time in public.

What is difficult about the principle that folks with a "same sex attraction (SSA)" are to be accorded equal dignity as human beings, but that SSA is not a license to act otherwise than as a human being?

And "Dignity" is no "Catholic" group; "Courage" is the Catholic group. They did not march.

How sadly ridiculous really...just as are Carnivale parades in New Orleans..homo or hetero sexual--the key word in these parades is: sexual.

I wonder if any parade in pagan Rome could hold a snuff to these parades...Carnivale disgusts me just as much, because it symbolizes the end of the ordinary period before Lent. I am sure that the original idea of having a little fun, dance, drink and food was not meant to be taken over by overt sexuality.

Here on NYC news, they said that the starting point of the gay parade was, as usual: St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Indeed, here we go again....

Alice

*sighs* and there proud of .....?

I suspect you meant the question rhetorically, but I'll answer it anyway.

And, I'll preface my remarks with this disclaimer: I'm not gay, and I'm not trying to push the acceptance of the "gay lifestyle."

Now, why is it so hard for some people to accept the distinction between being gay (not a sin) and the gay lifestyle (definitely sinful)? There are several reasons, in my opinion:

(1) The perception that the Church is being inconsistent. All three major areas of the Church (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox) have changed a lot in recent generations. Divorce and birth control are officially accepted by Protestants and Orthodox. The Mass has changed remarkably in the Catholic Church. Etc. Change is the norm in this era, and change is happening everywhere and in all aspects of life. So, a lot of people assume that the Church will change on homosexuality too. And that's because . . .

(2) Sin isn't sin anymore. If I had a nickel for every time that I heard someone say that sin is "missing the mark" -- instead of an offense and a wound-- I would be a rich man. Of course, sin isn't sin anymore because . . .

(3) God isn't God anymore. Instead of the personal and one Deity who revealed Himself to all mankind, we have "Ultimate Reality." And instead of universal revelation, we have "perceptions" that are shaped by the times and cultures of people. These localized perceptions are then woven into "sacred stories" ("myth" is a pejorative term for the other guy's sacred stories...) that yields "wisdom traditions" --not of God (ha-ha , ho-ho), but of the human condition ! And that's because . . .

(4) People aren't people anymore. We are not individuals and community, made in the image and likeness of God. Instead, we're just a bunch of talking, tool-making animals: caused by a cosmic accident, and trying to ascribe meaning to our lives (and to accept our demise). The Discovery Channel said so. And thus, curbing one's drives (including the sex-drive) is psychological (and political) repression. Instead, we should be "Free" to be slaves to our own desires, because . . .

(5) We're pagans again.


Lord have mercy.


-- John

John,

That is a great summation. I think I'll use it in my introductary remarks for my fall classes. Thanks.

CDL

"Instead, we're just a bunch of talking, tool-making animals: caused by a cosmic accident, and trying to ascribe meaning to our lives (and to accept our demise)."

Yet those who believe that occasionally use words like "procreate" and "creature" without properly understanding the premises they imply. Others do understand logic and avoid such base terms.

(Psalm 14, 1-3, NJV)

Yes indeed. John has hit the nail on the head. We now live in a post-Christian age. It is an age that is defined by scientific naturalism, positivism, and historical skepticism. And it doesn't seem to be going away. Part of the problem, too, I think is that the traditional arguments for God and for belief in a supernatural dimension of existence are just not very persuasive to people, anymore. This is especially the case among educated, intellectual westerners. What are we to make of this? It is highly relevant for the issue of gay rights, because if marriage is simply a social convention, then there isn't any reason not to grant homosexuals legal status as couples.

Joe

Too true, and arguing does little good (I have found). People can justify anything they want with the right premises. Also, therefore, people often (and conveniently) define truth to be relative.

Indeed, one of the best things I have recently heard was (then) Cardinal Ratzinger's sermon in which he denounced the dictatorship of relativism.

The answer is twofold, (1) Bear witness to the fact that Truth is not an intellectual proposition but, rather, a Person: Jesus Christ. (2) Be prepared with intellection for when people are moved by grace to come to Christ.

At least, that's what happened to me. I was one of those folks till the selfless love of two of my family (who took care of me during a severe illness) impressed me very much. I asked them where they gained such love, and they said Jesus Christ. They said it by example as well as by words. That impressed me enough to start researching more about the Gospel. And only at thatpoint was I open to intellectual argument. For me, at least, the first conversion happened in my heart and then, catching up, came my head. It worked for me; perhaps it can work for others too. That doesn't mean throwing out intellectual debates and inquiries till such moments -- as this Forum illustrates, intellection can be a good and useful exercise. It just means that all our talk and ideas won't mean anything till we have first witnessed by our love, which is simply His love shining through us, so that people can experience the love of Jesus Christ for themselves.



Which is why, I'm afraid, gay marriage might allowed by the government in this country within our lifetimes. Especially in a democracy, as the majority believes so often goes the law. And if the majority of a people in a once Christian culture no longer really believe in the Gospel anymore (or, if they don't have the guts to fully believe anymore?), then so goes the law. I conjecture that marriage as we know it (a sacramental union with the couple and God) will once again become solely a matter for the Church; and secular marriage / civil unions will devolve into merely a legal contract, a taxable unit of society, and glorified serial dating.

-- John

"I conjecture that marriage as we know it (a sacramental union with the couple and God) will once again become solely a matter for the Church; and secular marriage / civil unions will devolve into merely a legal contract, a taxable unit of society, and glorified serial dating."

Marriage has not been too respected in my lifetime. I was under the impression that this separation has already taken place.