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#241156 06/23/07 06:46 AM
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I will be attending my first RDL today at the parish where I received my "First Communion". The curiousity is killing me.. Feedback later... wink

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Is this a Saturday morning Liturgy or a Saturday evening vesperal Liturgy?

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It's a Saturday 4:00 vigil liturgy. Not a vesperal liturgy.

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Well, I just got home from the RDL. If the destruction of the BCC was the intended goal with this liturgy, it could very well happen.

The new music is ATROCIOUS! sick What was wrong with what everybody sang and knew from memory for years? It seemed so misplaced and certainly doesn't sound good. The cantor told everyone at the beginning where to place the various colored ribbons. Nothing except the "Lord have mercies", and "God grant many years" sounded anything like I remember.

I wont even comment on the inclusive language.

I really would like to know why any of this was deemed necessary. crazy

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Ethnick,

You have my sympathy!

Ungcsertezs

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Dear Ethnick,

Thanks for a review of the new corrupted Liturgy and music. But I think you are being to kind. I think it is much worse than you are admitting.

The books are not worth the paper they're printed on, and should be scrapped asap.

Nick

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It's hard to put into words how bad it sounded. It just needs to be experienced. The OCA music sounds much better now to me. When I'm in PA next month, I'll have to check out the OCA parish in Vintondale. They use prostopinije. Hopefully it will sound like I remember wink

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I had my first experience with the RDL yesterday...well, most of it, at least. I haven't been to my normal parish is about a month (been attending the local Ukrainian liturgy for no special reason at all other than its marginally closer and it starts an hour later). We kept the "old" music for the resurrectional tones, but those will be dropped come Friday when we'll be celebrating the "full" RDL.

It was weird. I've only been attending a ByzCath parish for 6 years now and it was really strange to me. We are blessed to have two cantors who can steer the congregation with relative ease, but there was still some overlap, especially in the new wording. Even the cantors did some slipping into the old music here and there, which made for a really schizophrenic experience.

The new books can definitely be unwieldy to those who aren't into books and flipping around, but I suppose that can fade with repeated use. I did like the addition of the traditional prayers of preparation at the beginning, though.

I really did not like the way that the priest's previously silent prayers were taken aloud for two reasons. First, it breaks up the momentum of the liturgy. Things come to a screeching halt. Secondly, Fr. Keleher is dead on in his assertion (as read in his excellent book on the RDL which I just finished) that, due to the particular wording of the translations, the now audible prayers just do not sound good to the ear. They sound very awkward. I have thought that perhaps it was just because I was unused to hearing them aloud, but the more I read over the prayers and say them aloud, the more I agree with Fr. Keleher.

We have a tradition in our parish (as I'm sure exists in others) to sing a variety of Eucharistic hymns from the back of the old book. That's apparently been thrown out the window. I don't know if that's mandated from above or not, but I was told that we wouldn't be doing that anymore. That's sad.

I really want to get to know the music and the pacing of the RDL before I realy make a decision. But as I wrote early in this post, I've only experienced the DLoSJC for about six years now. I can only imagine what those who have been experiencing it the (relatively) same way for 40+ years.

On the whole, based on my first impressions, I think it's a case of too much, too soon.

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It took me 30+ years to learn the "traditional liturgy"...now it will take 30+ more years to relearn the RDL.

Bad is not the term for what I experienced last Sunday for our first RDL. I tried it, I did not like it.

Why is there not one word in Church Slavonic in these great new books?

Why does it take a Masters Degree in Music to be able to decipher these "new translations and chants"?


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Originally Posted by Rusyn31
It took me 30+ years to learn the "traditional liturgy"...now it will take 30+ more years to relearn the RDL.
Yes. It is very sad. The words and music of the Liturgy were written on the minds and hearts of the faithful Ruthenian Catholic people. Most agree that such an extensive revision was not necessary.

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http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070617/25church.htm

The above link goes to the news story on the revival of the Latin Mass and the revival of pre-Vatican II customs. Here are some quotes from this article...

"...More people will attend mass if the traditions are richer and the doctrine stricter. The Latin mass, they say, would restore a sense of community they believe was diluted when the church allowed local culture to override tradition..."

I guess the RDL has taken care of this one...not one word of Slavonic... frown

"...that before Vatican II, mass attendance was at its highest and seminaries were full. "People just think we must have been doing something right," he says..."

Wow, what a profound statement. Us Byzantine Rusyns have been experiencing this for decades. I remember a full church every Sunday morning for Slavonic Liturgy with Bishop Bilock speaking Rusyn. Now there are barely enough to keep the churches open, and now since those great RDL books arrived, so more will leave (as I am also seriously considering). Also, with the way I see that "The Professor" treats the seminarians, no wonder there are none studying, or going to different Rites.

The best is saved for last,..."The old rite is far superior. It is more conducive to prayer, recollection, and personal dedication..."

Funny, our bishop(s) and my priest is trying to indoctrinate us by stating that we need to accept the RDL to, "fully comprehend the Liturgy, so we can better pray, and be closer to God." Sounds like something coming out of Communist East Europe in the day.....Jozef Stalin, Klement Gottwald....call your office.....

I fully comprehended the Liturgy when I read Msgr. Sheregy's book about the Liturgy of St. John. I fully comprehended the Liturgy when I memorized it in Slavonic and could sing without having to figure out which number we're using today. I fully comprehended the Liturgy when I went to Medzilaborce and heard the living tradition.

I guess that is all gone now, thanks to the RDL... mad





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Glory to Jesus Christ!

I've been debating about whether or not to post on the RDL, but after last evening's Liturgy for Peter and Paul, I feel inclined to share my opinion.

First, we are a very small mission community. So having only about a dozen of us last night for services wasn't out of the ordinary. But by the grace of God and through the cooperation of our bishop and the bishop of the Diocese of Arlington, we have a bi-ritual priest for every Sunday and holy day Liturgy. Having a priest is for us paramount.

Two, the priest who serves as administrator for our mission has kept us continually informed about the changes, albeit sometimes the explanations were more along the lines of understanding by a theologian.

Three, we have a wonderful cantor (God bless him!) who took on the task of gradually moving us over to the RDL. (We've been using parts of the RDL since right after Easter. Over the last month, we've been using the RDL almost in its entirety.)

Four, in addition to the new "pew" books, we are printing out the tropars/special music for the people so they don't have to fumble for pages.

Five, our community is full of many converts from Protestant communnities and many former Roman Catholics. On the whole, the transition seems to be much easier for them (personal opinion). Yes, there were some complaints, but theyve been the kind I associate with a change in procedures at work (like when you are bought out by a new company and you have to completely change the way you do your expense account). It's a learning curve issue. As for the "inclusive" language, no one seems overly distraught over "us" v. "mankind." Now, if they had changed Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to Creator, Renewer, and Sustainer... well, that would be a whole different story.

Six, many of us welcome, as a return to our tradition, the reinstitution of the zeon and the use of "Theotokos." Many would still like to have "orthodox Christians" in place of "Christians of the true Faith" and "unto ages of ages" in place of "forever and ever."

So, in short, our mission's experience with the RDL for the most part has been positive. Most agree it will be a little hard to break some of the phrasing we are used to singing (i.e., Glory to... instead of Glory be to...), but in the end it is really not a major issue. As for the music, we'll learn it.

I don't mean to dismiss legitimate concerns about the RDL's translation/music, but I wonder sometimes if the RDL hasn't become the catalyst through which some folks are voicing their years of frustrations (for right or wrong) that have developed with the Byzantine Church in general, and/or their bishop, and/or their priest(s) over the years.

I've noticed this type of lashing out is common in the workplace. Any change is magnified because people use it as a the conduit through which they often unknowingly express their anger/frustration over other matters intirely. As they say... been there, done that.

Anywho... last night's RDL... it went great... even with only a dozen people present. And no one went screaming into the night.

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Originally Posted by moncobyz
I don't mean to dismiss legitimate concerns about the RDL's translation/music, but I wonder sometimes if the RDL hasn't become the catalyst through which some folks are voicing their years of frustrations (for right or wrong) that have developed with the Byzantine Church in general, and/or their bishop, and/or their priest(s) over the years.
I thought you were not going to dismiss legitimate concerns?
Originally Posted by moncobyz
Anywho... last night's RDL... it went great...
I'm happy that it is a good experience for you.


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Last edited by Recluse; 06/29/07 03:59 PM.
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Dear Recluse:

Sorry for misunderstanding...wasn't dissmissing legitimate concerns. What I was trying to say was that yes, there are people who have legitimate concerns, but there are OTHER folks knowingly or unknowingly who use one issue as a cover to vent over other frustrations (which may or may not be legitimate). The original sentence would be better without the word "sometimes." The word will be gone in the RFP (Revised Forum Post).

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Originally Posted by moncobyz
What I was trying to say was that yes, there are people who have legitimate concerns, but there are OTHER folks knowingly or unknowingly who use one issue as a cover to vent over other frustrations (which may or may not be legitimate).
There will always be frustrations (whether the Liturgy is reformed or not). Those I have spoken to on this forum and elsewhere, who are displeased with the reform, have intelligent and concise reasons for their displeasure. There may be those who use the reform as an excuse to vent other frustrations, but I do not read hearts and minds, so it is difficult to make such a statement.

Peace and blessings to you,
Recluse


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