www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why not "Open Communion"?

Evidence?

The archives of the Orthodox Forum, unless they deleted an entire discussion over a period of two weeks or more.

Letters from monks and priests aware of the problem and don't know quite what to do with it.

Oh...you want proof so that you'll believe it?



Try the fact that very few Orthodox haven't been aware of the problem for some time now but most are not prepared to go beyond saying that it is something of a small problem that will work itself out in time.

You could do what I did and just ask around.

Mary

I see. So, your assertion is based upon posts at the Orthodox forum? What percentage of Eastern Orthodox in the United States post at that forum? With that out of the way, what substantive evidence do you have?

Finally, I do not think that Orthodox priests need to follow the scholastic theories of the Medieval Latin Church in order to impart the Orthodox faith to anyone, and I find that assertion rather insulting to the Orthodox. Latin ecclesiastical imperialism is most distasteful.

Now with this, I completely agree.

Ryan

The Forum has the largest number of Orthodoxy clergy active on-line. The discussion was primarily with clergy and not laity. I was part of it, and one other Catholic. Most of the discussion went on among the Orthodox clergy who were widely divergent in their descriptions of what "real presence" meant to them. There was a great deal of pressure to have me thrown off the list but the evidence was so clear that my assessment was on target that they did not summarily ban me from the list, though the management would have loved the excuse. That's where I met some of the Orthodox monastics who began writing to me privately saying that they were shocked by what they were seeing in response to my spefically probing question.

Orthodoxy does not have great numbers in this country so that when you have a mailing list of over a thousand Orthodox with nearly a hundred active clergy posting to the list, those are some representative numbers. It is not just the "lunatic fringe" or some off-the-wall gang of folk.

You are perfectly free to speak of your own experiences.

Don't characterize my experiences as some Latinate nonsense. My experiences are just as legitimate and real as your own.

In fact I spend one heck of a lot more time among the Orthodox than you do in that I live out my liturgical life in an Orthodox parish and I have had very little contact with papal Catholics for several years, except to keep up with news from the Vatican, and I study privately with Orthodox monastics and clergy. I would do so formally if I could afford the tuitions.

Blessings of Christ's peace, in the ever hopefulness of receiving more honest respect than I generally get from you.

Mary

Friends, it saddens me to see us quarrel about the Sacrament of Love which should unite us. How like us sinners to take a gift of unity and divide ourselves over our words.

I don't think the human mind can ever fully describe the Eucharist because It is Him, Jesus Christ, and His life, death and resurrection, dwelling among us. How to explain that in words? I think "transubstantiation" is a perfectly good way to describe this -- so long as it is understood that no human words can ever completely describe the Eucharist. Another good way to descrine It is Infintie and Divine Love.

It is sad, but real, that Christians are divided; and so the Eucharist is divided too -- but only among men. In Christ, He is always now and forever the same and One. After all, as it is said in the Liturgy by the priest,

"Broken and given is the Lamb of God:
broken but undivided,
eaten but never consumed,
sanctifying all who partake of Him
in the fullness of the Holy Spirit."

Let us, in that sense, agree to disagree and be united by His love till we are gathered around His eternal table in Heaven.

-- John

Who is quarreling about Eucharist?

I have raised a few small points about the article as it was written, and I've disagreed with certain assertions about what is what in systematic theology.

No offense intended, but the motive for your otherwise fine post, is not very accurate.

Mary

Medieval scholastic theories do not seem to be helping the Latin Church to maintain belief in the real presence among its own members. That said, I see no reason why the Eastern Orthodox Churches should have to adopt Latinizations in order to address the asserted -- but as yet unsupported -- problems among their own members.

Zenovia:

The reason that I could not is that every Protestant Church uses the words "the Body of Christ" as the Latin Church now does. That statement calls for an affirmation of faith in the word "amen."

I was trained to believe that to affirm that something not changed from what it started out to be, whether bread and wine or bread and grape juice, puts one in the position of committing three very serious sins: heresy, apostasy, and blasphemy. Heresy in that one affirms the Eucharistic doctrine of the community in which one finds oneself; apostasy because I already belong to an Apostolic Church that has the reality of the Body and Blood of Christ; and blasphemy in that I have called a man-created thing the King of Glory that I worship.

Now this may sound harsh, but my spiritual father affirmed it for me some years ago, though he said that for "pastoral" and "ecumenical" reasons we don't come out so boldly as that these days. (He also said he envied me being a layman who could speak the truth he dearly wished to speak in an age when often we must sidestep the really difficult statements so as to avoid offence at all costs.) The occasion was a family situation--don't know why I always end up in the middle of these, but I do--and a statement was made that people could receive at a Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran Church and that there was no difference and no effect. Well, as to difference, I outlined from the Latin Church's position what the differences were, based on the concepts of Apostolic orders and the lack thereof in these other communities. But as to effect, it seems to me that the Eucharist is far too important to casually jump from Church to Church and doctrine to doctrine. There's the problem of people thinking that if THEY have the correct doctrine and intention, it overcomes whatever may be lacking in the community in which they find themselves--especially from the point of view of their own Church. (That old "rugged individual" attitude about faith and practice that would have us be isolated "pockets of faith" able to function wherever we find ourselves and, as it were, being able to force the Holy Spirit to "make right" whatever was lacking in another community simply because we were there.) Another attitude is that doctrine is divorced from practice in such a way that it doesn't make any difference where one communes--that there is no objective reality in the Church or in what Christ would have us do--we can all make it up or make our own "economia" judgements as we go along.

Ultimately, for me, it's a matter of my relatinship with Christ. Do I really meet Him when I throw aside the commitment I made to Him in His Church and pretend to meet Him within the context of a situation that his Church says is not correct. It goes to what Communion IS on so many levels.

In Christ,

BOB

And this is ultimately the strongest point in Father John's article. I can agree whole heartedly with him in that and with you.

Mary

While there seems to be a lull in the action here I am going to point out something that should always be kept in mind. Basing anything as important as Church teachings should never be dependent on any internet discussion forum�s posts. The overwhelming majority of clergy of the Orthodox Church has never heard of the Orthodox Forum let alone participates on it, and the same could be true with most other forums. I would suspect the same true concerning Catholic clergy. That said; any posts on such forums can be best termed as subjective rather than dogmatic and in most cases non-authoritative.

This discussion though it has been attempted by several posters to be brought back into line with a discussion that moves on, seems to be bogged down, and it appears tempers might be getting short. Thus I feel no alternative than to state that this thread is now progressed off topic and is closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator