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Does anyone know if there is an effort on the part of the Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh to help the poor Rusyns / Rusins of Slovakia who have been denied a bishop of their own ? Why are the Slovak Catholics not permitting the Rusyns to pray in their own language and have their own bishop ? Next door in Ukraine no such discrimination towards the Rusyns exists.

I.F.

Read this news story:

Sighetu Marmaţiei, June 23rd, 2007

His Holiness

Pope Benedikt XVI

Vatican





Request of the delegates and guests

of the 9th World Congress of Rusyns

for recognition of the Rusyn Greek-Catholic Church

sui iuris in Slovakia and the appointment of its Rusyn bishop



Your Holiness,

We, the undersigned members of the World Council of Rusyns, being representatives of Rusyn cultural organisations in ten countries around the world associated in the World Congress of Rusyns, met on June 22nd � 23rd, 2007 at the 9th Congress in the town of Sighetu Marmaţiei in Romania. First of all, we would like to greet You, Your Holiness, and send You some heart-felt prayers from Rusyn Greek-Catholics, by which, to almighty God, we pray for You, representative of Jesus Christ on Earth, health and God�s grace in abundance.



At the World Congress meeting, problems of Rusyns around the world were discussed, especially their cultural-national development and recognition of their nationality rights in each country, where they live in high numbers. Among the discussed matters was the situation of Rusyn Greek-Catholics in Slovakia, who encounter injustice in non-recognition of their rights to use their mother tongue, Rusyn, in liturgical ceremonies, the right to post Rusyn priests in parishes with Rusyn congregations and the right to educate Rusyn theologians to preach among Rusyn believers in the Rusyn language. Rusyn priests addressed Your predecessor Holy Father John Paul II in 1997 and later in 2003 with an official request for recognition of the Rusyn Greek-Catholic Church sui iuris in Slovakia, as well as with a request to appoint a Rusyn bishop for this Church. However, the submitted matter has remained unresolved to this day. Rusyns realise the difficulties in resolving their request, but they find it just and fair according to secular and church laws.

That is why we address You, Holy Father, with trust and hope and we believe that our pleas will be heard. Our hope at this time is strengthened by Your increased interest in events within the Catholic Church in Slovakia, about which You were informed at the recent visit of bishops from Slovakia to the Vatican, as well as about the effort to create new bishoprics here. Although in 1968 Annuario Pontifico, the Rusyn Greek-Catholic Church sui iuris was changed to Slovak, the original Rusyn Church sui iuris did not cease to exist. On the contrary, this Church wishes to keep its identity and develop the religious and cultural heritage of its ancestors. It is also proven by the fact that, at the latest census of residents in Slovakia in 2001, 35 thousand Greek-Catholics designated Rusyn their mother tongue.



Your Holiness, on behalf of Rusyn Greek-Catholics, loyal messengers of Cyril and Method and most holy tradition of the Eastern Slavonic Church ceremonies, which link Greek-Catholic Rusyns not only in Slovakia, but also in Ukraine, Poland, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the USA, Canada, and elsewhere in the world, delegates of which represented their brothers and sisters also at the 9th World Congress of Rusyns in Romania, we ask You, who are at the position of the Holiest Office of Roman Pontifex Maxima, to hear the voice of Greek-Catholic Rusyns in Slovakia and renew the Rusyn Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia. For this deed, You will be sincerely thanked and Your decision will be beatified not only by the contemporary Rusyn Greek-Catholic congregation, but also their successors.



Praise be to Jesus Christ! (Slava Isusu Christu!)



With reverence,

members of the World Council of Rusyns

as the executive body of the World Congress of Rusyns:

Chairman Paul Robert Magocsi (North America)

Vice-Chairman Djura Papuga (Serbia)

Members of World Council of Rusyns:

Mychail Alma�ij (Ukraine)

Marianna Ljavinyec (Hungary)

Gheorghe Firczak (Romania)

Ag�ta Pil�tov� (Czech Republic)

Vladim�r Protivň�k (Slovakia)

Andrzej Kopcza (Poland)

Natalija Hnatko (Croatia)

Deputy of the World Council of Rusyns Alexander Zozuľ�k (Slovakia)

Why not keep it in the Ruthenian 'family' and appeal to Patriarch Lubomyr of Kyiv instead of Rome? Sorry, I forgot - Ukrainians are abusive to Rusyns and too Orthodox, real Catholics always go to Rome for everything (then ignore whatever they don't like).

_____
Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

Basically, the Pittsburgh Metropolia has disassociated themselves with the Rusyn cause. Bishop's Kosicko and Bilock were the last to do anything pro-Rusyn in regards to the Pittsburgh Metropolia. I have heard from many sources that they will remain to stay out of the ethnicity issues in Eastern Europe.

The Slovak Greek Catholic Church has been trying to slovakizie the Rusyns since at least the time of Fr. Andrej Hlinka and Msgr. Jozef Tiso around the time of the Munich Agreement and WWII. Remember beforehand the magyarization of Rusyns and Slovaks? Well now the Slovaks are in power, so they just decided to pick up where the Magyars left off...

After the rehabilitation of the G.C. Church in 1968, Bishop Hirka was appointed Apostolic Admin. (a strong supporter of slovakization), not Bishop Hopko, who was Auxiliary to Bishop Gojdic (if I remember right was Coadjutor but not sure??) and the rightful successor to the Presov Eparchy, who was expected to be named after his ordeal with the communists.

Since then, there has been great slovakiziation of the Rusyns through Hirka's and Bishop Babjak's episcopacy. It seems that throughout the centuries the way to eliminate an ethnic people is to forcible assimilate them. This was the official view of the ukrainianization of the Rusyns from the days of Klement Gottwald until the Velvet Revolution of 1989.

Next door in Ukraine, they do not even accept Rusyns as a separate ethnicity, so naturally there is no discrimination. The Transcarpathian Oblast has accepted Rusyn as a distinct national minority ethnic people. This is against the official Ukrainian party line position that Rusyns are just a sub-section of Ukrainian ethnicity, and has sent it to the Verchovna Rada for acceptance by the country of Ukraine.

Bishop Sasik is from Slovakia, but has not come out against Rusyns there, so maybe that will help Rusyns in Transcarpathia.

I did not get to go to this Rusyn World Congress but was at the last few. I saw the preliminary reports via the www.rusynacademy.sk [rusynacademy.sk] website. Can't wait for more about the Congress.

Dear Rusyn31,

'Au contraire' - the Ukrainians do in fact accept the Rusyns. Please read the recent letter from the President of the Ukrainian World Congress to the President of the Rusyn World Congress (pasted below).

I'm glad to hear that bishop Sasik who was born and raised as a Roman Catholic in Slovakia and now serves as bishop for the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachevo in Transcarpathia, Ukraine has not come out against the Rusyns. That would be a very mimimum the Rusyns should expect. I guess the right question to ask is - "Why has bishop Sasik (Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachevo in Transcarpathia, Ukraine) not come to the defense of the Rusyns in Eastern Slovakia ?". They are after all right next door and the same Carpatho-Rusyn people. As you mentioned, Bishop Babjak (ethnic Slovak in Eastern Slovakia) has been actively participating in the Slovakization of the Rusyn minority in his eparchy, yet Bishop Babjak does not speak out in defence of the Rusyns next door.

I.F.

СВІТОВИЙ КОНҐРЕС УКРАЇНЦІВ UKRAINIAN WORLD CONGRESS
CONGR�S MONDIAL UKRAINIEN CONGRESO MUNDIAL UCRANIO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEWSLETTER

UKRAINIAN WORLD CONGRESS

№ 6 (46) � June, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UWC SENDS GREETINGS TO RUSYN CONGRESS

On June 1, 2007 the UWC President sent greetings to the World Congress of Rusyns addressed to its Chairman Paul Robert Magocsi. The greetings read in part:

�Thank you for your kind invitation to the Ninth World Congress of Rusyns. I am reminded of the words of the Rev. Markian Shashkevych to his fellow Ukrainians, �Rus�ka Maty nas rodyla, Rus�ka Maty nas povyla��

The ranks of the Ukrainian World Congress are replete with Rusyns not only in ancestry but in name as well. At least three member organizations within the Ukrainian World Congress bear the name Rusyns: Union of Rusyns and Ukrainians in Serbia and Montenegro, Union of Rusyns-Ukrainians in the Slovak Republic and Union of Rusyns and Ukrainians in the Republic of Croatia. Nothing would please me more than if all Rusyn organizations outside Ukraine were a part of the Ukrainian World Congress. Certainly, I would welcome continued dialogue in this regard.

We in the Ukrainian World Congress regard Rus� to be the ancient name for what is now called Ukraine, and Rusyns (or Ruthenians in Latin) to be the people who now refer to them as Ukrainians (some with the addendum of �Rusyns� included). The principal history text of our people is, after all, entitled �History of Ukraine-Rus��. I have read your book �Our People� and found that it points to so much in common, i.e. history, culture, religion. Suffice it to say that there is more than unites than divides us.

Unfortunately�I cannot be with you at the Congress. Nonetheless I would like to take this opportunity to extend my heartfelt greetings and those of the Ukrainian World Congress to all the participants and all the Rusyns of the world. May God bless your efforts. May you prosper and enrich your lives. I wish you well because we are all God�s children, but I wish you more because we Ukrainians are all Rusyns after all.�

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E-mail: congress@look.ca

Jean Francois,

That is from the Ukrainian World Congress President. It is good to see the UWC state that, although reading the greeting, it doesn't really sound like they are differentiating any differences between Ukrainians and Rusyns with sentences like,

"Nothing would please me more than if all Rusyn organizations outside Ukraine were a part of the Ukrainian World Congress. Certainly, I would welcome continued dialogue in this regard".

or,

"We in the Ukrainian World Congress regard Rus� to be the ancient name for what is now called Ukraine, and Rusyns (or Ruthenians in Latin) to be the people who now refer to them as Ukrainians (some with the addendum of �Rusyns� included)".

Goes back to my original statement that Ukrainians just regard Rusyns as nothing but misguided Ukrainians.

Have to agree with Rusyn31 here.
Look at the last paragraph of the letter:
I am ashamed to say it sounds similar to what a Moskophil would say to a "Little Russian".
Why am I ashamed? Because I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and of Ukrainian heritage. I believe in self-determination of ethnicity.
If the Rusyns see themselves and self-declare themselves to be a specific ethnic group then I feel I have to respect their wishes.
Coming from Toronto, I knew little about the Rusyns before I became involved in this forum.

Dear Rusyn,

If you read the letter from the President of the Ukrainian World Congress, it is cleaR that at least 'some' of the Rusyns in Serbia and Montenegro, Croatia, and even Slovakia have no problem associating themselves with the larger Rusyn collective known as Ukrainians. They retain their ancient 'Rusyn' name but feel their ethnic identity can be best protected by joining with the larger group of Ukrainians.

Also, from what I have heard the vast majority of Rusyns in Canada, France, Australia, Brazil, Poland, Czech Republic, and most of the rest of the world have no problem with identifying themselves as Ukrainian-Rusyns. You may be surprised to hear that the vast majority of Rusyns in the Transcarpathian Region (Oblast) of Ukraine also identify themselves as both Rusyn and Ukrainian (some Rusyn first and some Ukrainian first - and some Russian).

Your statement is unkind since there are many Rusyns who feel very much at home with Ukrainians as described above. Certainly you can't believe that all of these Rusyns are as you say "misguided".

I.F.

Jean Francois,

My Rusyn cousins im Uzhorod do not believe they are Ukrainian. In fact, they speak a mix of Rusyn dialect and Great Russian. And their grandparents' generation still talk about the pre-War days when Uzhorod was the capital of Podkarpats'ka-Rus' Province of the first democratic Czechoslovakia. If one visits Uzhorod, you can hear a lot of Hungarian and Slovak speaking citizens, not to mention the numerous Roma-speaking Gypsy citizens.

Ungcsertezs

What is the official response of the Slovak Greek Catholic Church to this dispute?

The "official" response of the Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia is at this link:

http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=797

Unfortunately it is in Slovak, and I do not have time to translate it now. Maybe someone that has a few minutes can post it.

The Rusyn Greek Catholic Charter that prompted this response from the Presov bishop can be found here:

http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html

This link is in English, or you can also go to the Rusyn or Slovak version as well.

Miller -

It seems our posts missed each other by about 4 minutes. Please read my last one in which I agree 100% with you that people have a right to self determination. Why then ignore the fact that the majority of Rusyns around the world also see themselves as Ukrainians and vice versa. In fact in your native Canada, the Transcarpathian Rusyns and Galican Rusyns merged into one peoples just before the first World War and were known thereafter by their knickname 'Ukrainians' so as not be be confused with the 'Rossiany' (Russians formerly known as Moskali / Muscovite). You can Google the words Ruthenian and provinces such as Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba and the search engine will provide you with pictures old Ruthenian parishes which only later adopted their unified Rusyn name 'Ukrainians'.

In Quebec (the French Canadian province) the 'mother' of all Ukrainian churches in Montreal known as St-Michael's Parish was founded by Ruthenian Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytskyj prior to the first world war and the corner stone of the church located on Iberville Street still reads: 'St-Michael's Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Church'. In 1969 UGCC Patriarch and Cardinal Joseph Slypij paid homage to the founding Ruthenian (Rusyns) and Ukrainians of the parish church.

Outside of the United States, the above is more or less true in every country outside of the present day Ukrainian Republic.

Ung-Certez -

Thanks for your family history - it is very interesting. You are correct that Uzhorod is largely a non-ethnic Ukrainian city which has a large Hungarian minority. But in spite of this, all the people who live there speak perfect modern Ukrainian and the vast majority have or have a right to a Ukrainian passport because they are citizens of that nation. Further, please remember that it was the elected government official ande Ruthenian Greek Catholic Monsignor Avgustin Voloshyn who declare 'Podkarpastska-Rus' to be a Carpatho-Ukrainian nation in 1939, just prior to Hungarian invading it.

CRW -

Thank you for returning this thread back to it's original topic. Can anyone tell us how the Slovak Greek Catholic Church has responded ? One thing is for sure, that Bishopo Babjak has aggressively put down any clergy who have promoted a Ruthenian agenda. There are some great web sites about his Slovak intolerance for the Ruthenians.

I.f.

Very sad. Where is Orest Chornock when he is needed in his homeland?

Miller

I thought this article would help you better understand your Ukrainian roots.

http://canadaeast.com/ce2/docroot/article.php?articleID=24571

Quote # 1:

''The Ukrainians, Galicians, Ruthenians and Bukovinians left a physical impact in the form of over 50 exquisite Byzantine churches in what has been called the Church Capital of Canada.''

This quote would support what I had mentioned earlier, that when these Slavs came to Canada they more often than not identified themselves by what now would be considered regional (or provincial) names. In Canada they understood themselves to be the same people, and not Austro-Hungarians, or Russians, or Poles, and eventually all of them adopted the modern Rusyn national term. Today, these groups all belong to 'Ukrainian' (Rusyn national) churches - Greek Catholic and Orthodox.

Quote # 2:

''In the 50-odd churches mentioned in Kalyna by Alberta Tourism, there is a near equal split between Russo-Greek Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox. The Byzantine churches, complete with cupolas and Orthodox crosses, are always located in scenic areas. A very complete brochure from Alberta Tourism gives detailed instructions on how to reach the churches."

The term Russo-Greek Catholic is in fact Ruthenian or Rusyn Greek Catholic. You may notice that there are also Russian Orthodox churches in the area. 100 years ago 90 - 95% of these parishoners would have come from what is now the modern Ukrainian Republic and would probably identify themselves as Ukrainians (they would probably also be members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate).

I hope you get a chance to discover your Ukrainian Canadian ancestry by visiting Alberta this summer and visiting some of these churches.

I.F.

The only time Carpatho-Rusyns had their own country, in 1939, they called it "Carpatho-Ukraine." Rusyn is a dialect of Ukrainian.

Athanasius Pekar in his books does not seem to make a great distinction between Ukrainians and Rusyns.

It seems that there is a an extremely close relationship of Rusyns to Ukrainians, if they are not exactly identical.

Is it possible that for some at least, the distancing from identification with the larger Ukrainian nation could in fact be the result of past Slovakization and Magyarization?

We share with the Ukrainians the same liturgical traditions of the Kievan tradition. Our chants are historically different.

Frankly- I do not want to offend anyone- it seems in my reading of history, only a mountain range puts much distance between Rusyns and Ukrainians.

With all due respect, I have heard the opposite of what Ung-Certez shares: that in fact many Rusyns do view themselves as Ukrainian, hyphenated or not, in the Uzhorod area.

Jean Francois,

thanks for bringing this to our attention, sad and frustrating as it is. I am sorry to hear that our Ruthenian Church in Carpathia is still fighting the battles Paul Godjich had to fight.

Lance

Dear M. Jean Francois,
I am very aware of "my roots." I went through Ridna Shkola as did both my sons. Also, unlike the USA, there were a very limited number of immigrants to Canada from Zacarpathia as opposed to Galicia, Volyna, Bukovyna and even Eastern Ukraine.
What you have quoted is not new to me or few on this forum.

My point is that I believe in self-determintion.
If there are a group of people who want to retain the older name of "Rusyn" and believe they now (2007) form s distinct ethnic group, I believe they have to right to do so. They have the right to self-declare themselves as Rusyns.
I do not believe that I as a Ukrainian have the right to force my ethnicity on this group of people.
Now let us all get back to the original topic regarding the Slovak issue in the Ruthenian Church.

If Rusyn is a dialect of Ukrainian, why was it codified on January 27, 1995 in the capital of Slovakia, Bratislava? If Rusyn is a dialect, why is it being taught as a different language at the Universities in Presov, as well as in Krakow?

Juraj Vanko, PhD, has a book called, "The Language of Slovakia's Rusyns". Explains the similarities and differences between Standard Slovak, the East Slovak Dialects, and Ukrainian.

Even in Ukraine, there are books on the Rusyn language. One such book is by Prot. Dmitrij Sydor, an Orthodox priest in Uzhorod. The book is titled Grammar of the Rusyn language, according to the Rusyns of Ukraine, Central Europe and America. Explains the similarities and differences between the related slavic languages of the area.

Carpatho-Ukraine was political motivated by the Ukrainian Communist movement, which was nonexistent beforehand during the First Czechoslovak Republic. In the 1920's this term "Carpatho-Ukraine" was brought about by the local Communist party and Ukrainian nationalists (through the instruction of the Cominterm in 1925...gee no shock there). It was little more than Hitler's disinformation campaign directed against Berlin's enemies.

The term Rusyn-Ukrainian, or Ukrainian-Rusyn, was again, brought about by the Communists. When the Rusyn nationality was obliterated by the Communists during the Iron Curtain, many Rusyns took on the Ukrainian national ideals. One of the reasons any Rusyn organization or person uses this hybrid nationalistic hyphonization is because of those policies brought forth through Stalin, Gottwald, etc.

You are correct that Fr. Pekar does not distinguish between the two because he simply is reporting the facts, letting people decide for themselves.

You are also correct that there are close relationships between Rusyns and Ukrainians. There are also close relationships between Ukrainians and Belorussians as well as Great Russians. There are close relations between Rusyns and East Slovaks as well.

Probably the closest relationships among slavs are between Czechs and Slovaks. Nobody calls Slovak a dialect of Czech, even though Czech was the official language in the Slovak area of the Habsburg Empire until they codified their own language.

Unfortunately for us Rusyns, we have always developed slower than our Slovak, Polish and Ukrainian counterparts. When Alexander Duchnovic, Alexander Pavlovic, and Adolf Dobrianskij were trying to awaken the peasant Rusyns in the mid 1800's, they were doing When Rusyns did manage to get some form of recognition, someone was always there to squelch it rather quickly.

oops, hit a button too soon....last paragraph in its full form.

Unfortunately for us Rusyns, we have always developed slower than our Slovak, Polish and Ukrainian counterparts. When Alexander Duchnovic, Alexander Pavlovic, and Adolf Dobrianskij were trying to awaken the peasant Rusyns in the mid 1800's, they were doing quite nicely. When Rusyns did manage to get some form of recognition, someone was always there to squelch it rather quickly. This came in 1868 with the creation of the Dual Monarchy and the One Nationality Law put into place by the Hungarians. The rest is history.

Thank you Miller!

Lance - Certainly there is little left of the Rusyn movement in Slovakia, perhaps this is why many of those remaining have decided to partner with the larger Rusyn collective known as Ukraine (They joined the Ukrainian World Congress as a Rusyn & Ukrainian group from Slovakia). Ukrainians after all have no problem with the term Rusyn since as their World Congress Leader has stated - "we are afterall all Rusyns". Further, as many of them become increasingly frustrated with Bishop Babjak and his anti-Ruthenian antics I'm sure many more will begin to re-evaluate their association with the larger Ukrainian 'collective'.

Rusyn31 - Your attempt to tie Communism with Ukrainian-Rusyn nationalism is simply not correct. As previously stated it was the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Monsignor (ie; a very prominent Rusyn in the Greek Catholic Church) Avgustin Voloshyn who was also elected to the 'Podkarpadska-Rus' assembly you mentioned and who on behalf of a majority government and as the interim president declared the region to be the Carpatho-Ukrainian Republic which had long term plans to join Western and Greater Ukraine as one unified state. That was in 1939 and was preceeded by years of Rusyn nation building work on the part of many people. The Communists did not take over until 1944 (ie; 5 years later). Please check your history facts by Googling the net - there are many references to this.

Miller - Again, I too agree about self determination, and since most of the Carpatho-Rusyns have no problem with a hyphenated (or not) Ukrainian identity neither should you. Also it's great to know that you attended Ridna Shkola (Ukrainian Saturday School) but I doubt if they taught you Canadian-Ukrainian history - no way ! Your statement that there were fewer Carpatho-Ukrainians settling in Canada than the USA is true, but according to the travel article I posted for you, there were many Carpatho-Rusyns (or simply Ruthenians) who did settle in Western Canada - again you would not have learned this in Ridna Shkola. But I bet you did learn about Kozaks (there are people in Ukraine who want this label) and Hutsuls, and 'Hetmantsij', and many other labels. Good for them and lets hope they all self actualize.

I.F.

http://www.rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
http://www.rusyn.org/polcommunism.html

The Soviets, not the communists took over in 1944. The communists were well established in Transcarpathia as well as in Ukraine (remember the famine of 1932-1933)

Here is one part from the above websites:

"Carpatho-Ukraine/Karpats�ka Ukraina � a self-governing part of the federal, second Czechoslovak Republic. Also known as *Subcarpathian Rus�, Carpatho-Ukraine functioned as an autonomous province from October 12, 1938, to March 14, 1939, with its capital first in Uzhhorod (until November 2, 1938) and then in Khust. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was introduced by a decree of the autonomous government headed by Avhustyn *Voloshyn (December 30, 1938), although without legal sanction, since a change of name from Subcarpathian Rus� was only within the jurisdiction of a provincial diet that had not yet been elected (see Subcarpathian Rus�). The name Carpatho-Ukraine had been used since the mid-1920s by the local branch of the *Communist party (on instructions from the Comintern in 1925) and by Ukrainian nationalists. The term itself had no historic precedent but was politically inspired. It reflected, on the one hand, the hopes of Ukrainian nationalists to create a �Ukrainian Piedmont in the Carpathians� (1938-1939) and, on the other, the �Ukrainian orientation� allegedly adopted as part of Nazi Germany�s policy of territorial expansion. In fact, it was little more than a part of Hitler�s disinformation campaign directed in 1938 against Berlin�s enemies in both western (Britain and France) and eastern (Poland and the Soviet Union) Europe."

Following are exerpts from Paul Robert Magocsi's and Ivan Papp's, "Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture"

The first communist party in Transcarpathia was founded in 1920 and called the International Socialist party of Subcarpathian Rus' This party along with the Czech and Slovak parties, created in 1921 the Communist party of Czechoslovakia.

In 1925, the Subcarpathian Communists accepted the decision of the Communist party (Bolshevik) of Ukraine, that regardless of what the local population called itself, Rusyns were to be considered a branch of the Ukrainian nationality. This is right about the time that Voloshyn mystically changed from Rusyn Greek Catholic priest to a staunch Ukrainian Nationalist.

If the population is soo Ukrainian, why do you hear everyone speaking Great Russian in Uzhorod?


Ungcsertezs

�Miller - Also it's great to know that you attended Ridna Shkola (Ukrainian Saturday School) but I doubt if they taught you Canadian-Ukrainian history - no way!� Jean Francois.
Dear Jean Francois,
Actually Ukrainian-Canadian history was taught to us in Ridna Shkola which in those days was not only on Saturdays. We learned all about the three waves of immigration to Canada with emphasis on the first wave, the pioneers on the Canadian prairies. But that is to be expected in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada which prides itself on its Canadian origins and independent identity.Not only that, Jars Balan, historian and the executive director of the Kalyna Country Ecomuseum Trust Society mentioned in the article you cited grew up in my parish although he is older than I am and was not a classmate by any means. Furthermore, his father, Jaroslav Balan, was a teacher in the parish Ridna Shkola for many years.
Also in university I wrote an essay on Ukrainians in Canada for a Canadian History course. Living in Toronto, I have had many opportunities over the years to attend lectures both at church and at the university on Ukrainian Canadian topics as well as reading the publications of the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies. So please do make groundless assumptions or attempt to denigrate my knowledge of Ukrainian-Canadian history.

�Your statement that there were fewer Carpatho-Ukrainians settling in Canada than the USA is true, but according to the travel article I posted for you, there were many Carpatho-Rusyns (or simply Ruthenians) who did settle in Western Canada - again you would not have learned this in Ridna Shkola.� Jean Francois

What I did learn and is an historical fact (see publications of the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies) is that the vast majority of the pioneer or first wave of settlement on the prairies were people from Halychyna with a small minority from Bukovyna. The inter-war immigration from Voyn is beyond the topic at hand.

�But I bet you did learn about Kozaks (there are people in Ukraine who want this label) and Hutsuls, and 'Hetmantsij', and many other labels. Good for them and lets hope they all self actualize.� Jean Francois.

The point is as I mentioned before is that other regional groups in what is now Ukraine freely chose to be Ukrainians. But please there is no purpose in continuing this train of discussion; let us discuss the original issue of Slovaks & Rusyns and the Church and without attempting to insult me and my knowledge.

Great Russian? I'm quite surprised. Most of the Russian I've heard spoken throughout Ukraine is quite poor, at best decent. Even many prominent Russophiles speak lousy Russian. Maybe they should all spend some time in Uzhhorod where the average knowledge of Russian is 'great'...

Pardon my ignorance! I'd just like to offer here a little thought that occured to me as I read this thread. If it is woefully ignorant or stupid, please bear with me and correct me.

As you all know, the Rusyn Greek Catholic church in postwar Czechoslovakia was driven underground by the communists in 1948. I remember read that, when the 279 formerly Greek Catholic parish communities in Czechoslovakia were asked to vote in 1968 whether to remain Orthodox or join the reconstituted Greek Catholic Church (which would end up being (re)named "Slovak Catholic Church" in that same year by the Vatican), 202 parishes joined the reconstituted Catholic jurisdiction while the remaining 77 voted to remain under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia.

Could it be.... that the communities that remained Orthodox were precisely the communities that had the strongest "Rusyn" or even "Moskophil" tendencies, thus weakening what could have been a united front against Slovakization? (I wonder if this might have been the case since the "back to Orthodoxy" movement among the Rusyns in the 1910's-1940's had a very strong Russophile color)

Furthermore, could Slovakization have been a more or less conscious attempt to avoid further persecution, given that Communist governments in the Cold War era were known for their persecution of minorities and their drive for ethnic homogenization in many ethnically diverse places?

I cannot help but wonder if, as happened in the USA twice in the twentieth century and in parts of Eastern Europe in the 1st half of the 20th century, the more staunchly Rusyn Catholics in Czech and Slovak lands will end up mass-converting to Orthodoxy in order to defend their religious culture from latinization.

Your statistics are inaccurate. In 1968 only one or two parishes voted to remain with the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia. But when the Soviets invaded, the plebescites were stopped and the remaining parishes were all stuck with the Orthodox. People in those parishes would explain that "we're Greek-Catholics, but our priest is Orthodox."

Fr. Serge

And they're much better off than we are - "official" greek-catholics. At least - liturgically.

May I suggest that you meet Bishop Milan of Kosice?

Fr. Serge

Rusyn 31- Thank you for including the Communist debate in this thread. There are some who may think that it is off course, but in fact it is integral to understanding peoples perceptions and the overall balance of power between church and state, particularly immediately after WW2. Other than the quote you provided, I myself have never before read that Communists were attempting to create a Carptho-Ukrainian homeland. This 'nation building' would be incongruent with the overall behaviour of Communists which has been to denegrate any form of Ukrainian national statehood. In any event, ALL of Eastern Europe had strong Communist minorities who were doing everything possible to destroy the national churches (Orthodox & Greek Catholic). This would sadly also include people who identified themselves as Carpatho-Rusyns, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Czechs, and many other labels. All had minority movements who wanted to take power in the name of the Communist Party. The Rusyn nationalists (Ukrainians) were attempting create a true nation state so that just this would not happen, and in fact they were hoping to launch an offensive into Greater Ukraine 'Vylyka Ukraijina' to free the Ukrainians of Bolshivik Russophilic terror which in 1932 - 1933 alone had claimed over 7 million men, women, and children in an act of genocity. In summary, the Rusyn Nationalists (Ukrainians) were attempting to free the people of Communism, whereas the Communists in Carpatho-Rus were attempting impose that form of terror on the people of 'Subcarpthian-Rus'. The Rusyn nationalists (Ukrainians) and Rusyn Communists were sworn enemies who fought each other early into the 1950. It's too bad that Magosci and Pop fail to mention some of the heroic battle that the Carpatho-Ukrainians as part of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA in Ukrainian) fought against both the NAZIs and Muscovite Communists. They were attempting to preserve their way of life - and perhaps most importantly their cherished Greek-Catholic Church.

Miller - I spoke to the vice-president of the Ukrainian World Congress this morning (@Montreal) and the head of the Ukrainian Canadian Committees' Toronto Branch and both have indicated that Canadian-Ukrainian Studies are NOT part of 'Ridna Shkola' curriculums as far as they new. They also both told me that even in 'Kursy Ukrajinoznavstva' (Ukrainiann High School - Saturdays) Canadian-Ukrainian Studies are not part of the curriculum. Further, they told me that both these levels of education still largely take place on Saturday mornings only. Perhaps things are different were you are. Also, I ask that you read the article which clearly states that Galicians, Ruthenians (Rusyns), Bukovinians, and others settle and established about an equal number of churches in each area. Therefore, there was representation from all these groups. What you are probably not aware of is that many of the Bukovinians and Ruthenians (and even some Galicians) whent over to the Russian Orthodox Church because that is the church to which they belonged when they were living in the old country (ie; what is now the Ukrainian Republic). If you look at the names of parishoner and priests in the Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Canada, even today you will notice that the vast majority of surnames are Ukrainian. The Galicians marginaly more dominant in Western Canada but more importantly as Professor Magosci has stated were the Pidemont of Ukrainian nationalism and tended to dominate political life. Your perception - because you belong to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - is that Galicans dominated in numbers. This was more true in term of nationalism than anything else.

AsianPilgrim - At this point nobody even cares why people whent underground or not. The problem now is those above ground in Slovakia who are beign harassed the Slovak national Bishop Babjak who will not permit them to self-actualize in their native Ruthenian language. Why does the decades old policy of assimmilation of the Ruthenian people continue by Bishop Babjak and Rome remains silent ????

SergeKeleher - I have heard great things about Bishop Milan and if you could forward me an invitation I would be happy to meet him. I now live in Manhattan - he is welcome to visit anytime !!

I.F.

ps: sorry for typos - no time for spell check

I don�t know why you are pursuing this but I find it quite rude. It looks like I have to tell you that the Ukrainian World Congress is not a prime mover in Canada. I am not doubting your honesty in reporting their answers. However, these 2 people may be more interested in Ukrainian issues in Ukraine rather than in Ukrainian education in Canada. I do know that Ukrainian World Congress is a significant organization in the USA & in Europe but not here in Canada. Many of us here question its usefulness now that Ukraine is free. But it is a free choice for those who want to participate in that body. For example, I do not consider myself a Ukrainian living in the diaspora but a Ukrainian �Canadian. To me the use of the word diaspora implies we are all going to pack up and go �home� to Ukraine some day. My children are third generation. When I have been to Winnipeg for Church functions I have met people who are 5 generation and still involved in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and speaking Ukrainian.

Now if you had said you talked to the head of KYK (Canadian Congress of Ukrainians) or the Toronto head of KYK I would take notice or the head of the P�s &B�s Association (Professional & Businessmen�s Association). I was born in Toronto, educated in Toronto, married in Toronto, have 2 kids in Toronto and am a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada with all my family including my wife�s parents and grandparents who in particular are very involved in the church and its organizations. Our Church has a national youth group named CYMK, which identifies itself as Ukrainian Orthodox Youth. The origins of CYMK are in the CYC movement in Canada. CYMK in particular is taught about our Ukrainian-Canadian settlement and history in Canada. My sons went to National Conventions of CYMK were plays were put on about Ukrainian pioneer settlement etc. that were written by the youth themselves not adults.

Our church headquarters are in Winnipeg and all out sobors take place every five years in Winnipeg. The point I was trying to make is that our church is an independent Canadian church and thus the teaching of Ukrainian-Canadian history is very important for our youth. Thus, for Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, Ukrainian-Canadian history is included. There are various types of Ukrainian Schools in Toronto, run by individual parishes or by organizations such as UNO, ODUM, PLAST, SUM and the quality differs across the board. I did contact someone who teaches in the PLAST school and she stated her organization does included a brief survey course of Ukrainian-Canadian history.

In the three prairie provinces in Western Canada, there are bi-lingual Ukrainian-English primary schools, thus the children learn language and culture and of course Ukrainian-Canadian history in the publicly funded regular schools. In addition there are private organizations with Ukrainian schools & I know that Organizations like PLAST in Winnipeg & in Edmonton, SUM and UNO in Winnipeg continue their work and for the Orthodox again there is CYMK in addition to school.

As I said before I do not think this has aby baring on the topic at hand so please let us discontinue discussing Ukrainian schools in Toronto.

Agreed! This is definitely off-topic. Either this threads posts are to remain on topic or it faces closure.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Back to the situation in Slovakia: From the programming on Radio Patria it seems that the Rusyns are being treated fairly well as far as language programming, and in one month on Sundays they have broadcasted two times GC divine Liturgies and once Orthodox.

Well, that is sort of correct, but remember this...

The Rusyn broadcast at Radio Patria is going to put the best of the Rusyn heritage on the radio. Through my rusyn radio program here in Pittsburgh we do the same thing and try not to get into politics. That is why I am on this board...

I have worked with Radio Patria's Ondrej Kandrac and Teodozia Lattova. Their job is to produce quality Rusyn programming to put the best Rusyn program on the air, not to criticize the Greek Catholic Church. That is the job of organizations like Rusinska Obroda in Presov or the news publications Narodny Novynky and Rusyn, also from Presov.

If you go to www.rusynacademy.sk [rusynacademy.sk] and look up religion, you will see the Charter of the Greek Catholic Rusyn that was sent to Bishop Babjak. You can get this either in its original Rusyn form, Slovak, or English.

Here's the English translation link: http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html#C_H_A%A0R_T_E_R

If you go to these sites, you can see the response by the GC Church, as well another article on " The Rusyn Question" (they are in Slovak, no English translation available, sorry):

http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=797
http://www.grkatpo.sk/spravy/?zobrazit=text&id=529

It is well documented that the Greek Catholic Church has tried to slovakisize the Rusyns. Take the fact that Rusyn priests would be transferred to Slovak parishes and vice versa.

Case-in-point a year ago this July 16th, Fr. Frantisek Krajnak was transferred from Medzilaborce to Kamienka. Yes, Kamienka is also Rusyn, but all of his work was done either in Medzilaborce or in his first assignment in Rokytov pri Humennom (another Rusyn village about 20 miles north of Humenne).

Fr. Frantisek translated the Gospel into Rusyn, and has been the leader of the Greek Catholic Rusyn priests. He has been very vocal for the Rusyn cause.

When he was transferred, the faithful wrote a scathing letter to Bishop Babjak. Here is the link to that story:

http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html#The_last_Sunday_liturgy

We could also go into what is happening to the Rev. Jozifat Timkovic OSBM, and his brother the Rev. Gorazd Timkovic OSBM. Here is their website, check it out for yourself, lots of information and proof on the de-rusynifacation and slovakization.

http://www.geocities.com/timkovic/

The rusyns do get a lot on Radio Patria, but also remember that that is Slovak Radio 5. Bratislava dictates what goes on....

They mix up the liturgies between GC and Orthodox, to give fair balanced time to both.

If you go on the Orthodox website in Slovakia you can listen to the Rusyn homilies and look at the texts in Rusyn (but in latinized script).

http://www.pravoverni.sk/

Father, blahoslovi!
I know our polish-ukrainian bishop. It may be enough. So, what's so unusual about this bishpop Milan of Koszice?
It's too far from me - some 600 km at least.

Vostonchnyk - I distinctly remember Askold L. (President of the Ukrainian World Congress) tell me about this: "the UWC President was hosted at the home of the President of the European Congress of Ukrainians Levko Dovhovych in Kosice". You can read the whole article below. Askold L. of course live here in Manhattan and is very worldly, intelligent, sofisticated, wealthy multimilionaire, and a first class 'Bandera' player who attended SUM / CYM summer camps in New York State along with other notables like Mrs Yuschenko, R. Z. the Ukrainian minister of Justice, and of course the Patriarch of the UGCC Lubomyr Husar. He is clearly projecting the new image of Ukraine, which is one not associated with the past horros of Moskal Bolshivik Communism. Askold's visit to Slovakia was front page news and he was extremely well received by levels of government in Slovakia- even by the minority of Ruthenians who do not view themselves as Ukrainians (ie: they kinda of like him).

I.F.

PS: You may have noticed that he made a point of mentioning that the Bishop of the Greek Catholic Church was an enthnic Slovak (ie: he should be Ruthenian / Ukrainian).


СВІТОВИЙ КОНҐРЕС УКРАЇНЦІВ UKRAINIAN WORLD CONGRESS
CONGR�S MONDIAL UKRAINIEN CONGRESO MUNDIAL UCRANIO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SLOVAK REPUBLIC


From August 11-13, 2005, Ukrainian World Congress President Askold S. Lozynskyj was a guest of the Association of Rusyn-Ukrainians in the Slovak Republic (ARUSR). The Slovak Republic(SR) is particularly interesting from the Ukrainian perspective in that Ukrainians-Rusyns reside on their ethnic native land but outside the borders of Ukraine and thus are considered a part of the Diaspora. The total population of the SR is a little more than five million with approximately one hundred thousand Ukrainians-Rusyns. Unfortunately, the last census resulted in a smaller calculation and divided Ukrainian-Rusyns into two groups. A significant problem for Ukrainians in Slovakia is �political Rusynism� which insists that Ukrainians and Rusyns are two different nationalities. The Slovak authorities exploit the ancient maxim �divide and conquer� and popularize the two nationalities theory, thereby diminishing the size and influence of both groups.

The predominant share of Ukrainians resides in the Presov region (one of seven regions in the SR), in such cities at Presov, Svidnik etc. The headquarters of the ARUSR is situated in Presov. Svidnik is the site of an extraordinary Museum of Ukrainian-Rusyn culture, an art gallery and a �museum beneath the open sky,� where traditional church, school and dwelling architecture from different villages within the Presov region are on display. Svidnik hosts an annual Ukrainian Cultural Festival attracting an audience from all of the SR. The governor of the Presov region and the mayor of Svidnik are both ethnically Ukrainian. Ukrainians have radio programs, newspapers, magazines, schools, Ukrainian language classes, a state professional theatre, choirs and various folklore ensembles. However, the names of streets in areas largely inhabited by Ukrainians are strictly in Slovak in contrast to areas largely concentrated by Hungarians where Hungarian is a second language. The presiding bishop of the Greek Catholic eparchy is Slovak. Financial difficulties arise since funding is earmarked for specific projects only and not administrative expenses. The economic situation in the SR and the lack of financial resources of its citizens does not enable adequate private funding. Further, the community feels an intentional attempt to assimilate Ukrainians within both the Slovak and Roman Catholic amalgams.

In the course of his visit, the UWC President met with the SR�s former President Rudolph Schuster, the Governor of the Presov region, the Mayors of both Presov and Svidnik. Additionally in Presov he visited with Ukraine�s Consul General Inna Ohnivec. Relations between Ukraine and the SR are normal, yet limited. Even after the Slovak Republic�s admission into the European Union, trade with Ukraine increased with the balance favoring Ukraine. During the second day of his visit, the UWC President was hosted at the home of the President of the European Congress of Ukrainians Levko Dovhovych in Kosice. Additionally there was a meeting with the Presidium of the ARUSR, during which both sides provided information about themselves and discussed mutual concerns and the parameters for future cooperation. The press conference held in Presov was widely attended by Slovak and Ukrainian media. Of particular interest was the Slovak Rusyn-Ukrainian community�s imminent induction into UWC membership. Press coverage extended throughout the SR

The UWC President was escorted throughout his visit by the Chair of the ARUSR Ivan Laba, his two deputies � Petro Sokol and Pavlo Bohdan together with Ukraine�s Consul General and the ECU President.

On August 17 2005 the UWC Board of Directors meeting in Kharkiv voted to accept the ARUSR for membership in the UWC.


Askold S. Lozynskyj

President

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/press_releases/2005/Images/part2/Slovakia.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/press_releases/2005/Slovakia/index.html&h=1544&w=2080&sz=624&hl=en&start=42&sig2=kw3nNqbwwcNBU0miqjOeQg&tbnid=-uqbTg6m7vCC8M:&tbnh=111&tbnw=150&ei=GL2cRsKLC6GGeOPf9JMK&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dslovak%2Bgreek%2Bcatholic%2Bchurch%2Beparchy%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dstrict%26client%3Ddell-usuk-rel%26channel%3Dus%26sa%3DN%26ad%3Dw5

To Jean Francois,Sir, your use of the word "Moskal" is offensive to me,especially when you link that word to Bolshevism.I thought this was a Byzantine Catholic Forum,NOT a Ukrainian Nationalist Forum.I may have stated this before,but does anybody realise that there were Russian Orthodox(whether Muscovite or Russified Ukrainians) who shed their blood for Catholic Spain,fighting for the Nationalists under Franco,whose victory prevented Spain from becoming a possible Soviet satellite in Western Europe.Then there were Orthodox who shed theie blood for Catholic Poland, both in the regular Polish Army and later in the Polish Army in Exile,which had not only Orthodox and Catholic Chaplins,but also Protestant,Jewish and Muslim Chaplins.This in spite of the excesses which were committed against the Orthodox by Poland between the wars,compared to Hitler and Stalin,most Ukrainians and Russians would probably have seen Poland as the lesser of three evils.To use words like "Moskal" is just as offensive as the cleric who claimed elsewhere that the Ukrainian Catholic Church was "pro-Nazi".Metropolitan Andrei Sheptitsky not only sheilded Jews from the Nazis,but also spoke out against POLISH treatment of the Orthodox during the interwar years.

Father, please, do not take an offence. It's a part of our Eastern European tradition to call each other names, e.g. moscovites call us, ukrainians, "khokhly", we call them "kacapy" or "moskali". Moreover, we belive, that "ruski" does not mean "russian", but "ukrainian". Since Moscow is the 3rd Rome and there will be no 4th - using an analogy with Rome-Romans, we consider the word "Moskal" to be equally legitimate. Language is political thing, indeed.

Father Al - Please do not take offense when none is meant. Please note that when the Ruthenian Metropolitan signed the Union of Brest of 1596, he was doing so on behalf of most of his bishops and all of RUS - but not Muscovy which is to the North of present day Ukraine.

Here is some historical information to help you better understand the nomenclaure. I mention it because it is relevant to the problem of Carptho-Rusyns who were the last to undergo the name change from Rusyn to Ukrainian:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://russia.nypl.org/images/maps/Muscovy2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://russia.nypl.org/maps/expanding.html&h=521&w=500&sz=61&hl=en&start=18&sig2=o8qqe0qvlsQ3_Fot5XIUIA&tbnid=DW0FU_Cxxvk9dM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=126&ei=VqKfRqztOJOCeIjasBs&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmuscovy%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dstrict%26client%3Ddell-usuk-rel%26channel%3Dus%26ad%3Dw5

At the time, the people from this Northern area were known as Muscovites and the people around Kyiv as Rusyns. In other words, the Ukrainians use to call themselves Rusyns AND STILL DO (by the way not just in Transcarpathia). They still call the people next door Moskali (or Muscovites) and the term is completely valid and not deragatory as you may have implied. You may have noticed, that since Ukraine became independant 15 years ago, historians have increasingly reverted to the term Mucovy / Moscali. Further The Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch Filaret uses the term all of the time without offense to denote the fact that the people of present day Ukraine are Rusyns and of a different heritage than those of Muscovy (Moskali) who now are located in an area North of Ukraine. The Pagans of Ukraine odly follow the same logic (Rusyns & Moskali). Sorry Father - but get use to it because it's being used more and more by non-Rusyn / Ukrainians.

Please keep this thread on track. If you wish to discuss any subject matter which is off topic then please private pm me at any time.

Vostochnyk - Harvard University's Ukrainian Research Center can be contacted at any time to confirm what I have stated above to Fr. A. Most of the ORIGINAL maps of Muscovy and Ukrajina I mentioned above can be found at Harvard University. Please keep the thread on track or pm for off-thread discussions.

I.F.

I.F.

I am most interested in this thread, but it seems that we are spending so much time on the Rusyn-Ukrainian identity issues. What I want to know is: Is there anything we can do to help our Rusyn co-religionists defend their heritage and liturgy in Slovakia? Maybe there is not, but I would like to talk about it with people.

I am interested in the Ukrainian -Rusyn issue, too, but it seems like it should be a completely different thread.

I strongly suspect that the most effective means of supporting the Greek-Catholics in Slovakia is to visit them regularly and frequently, and stay in contact. Nothing is worse than the feeling that no one cares.

Fr. Serge

Father Keleher is correct. I recently finished researching my family's history and can trace it back to the late 1700.s I found cousins my my paternal grandfather's village and the oldest of them (Jozef Molnar) was actually born in my home town in Western Pennsylvania! His father (my paternal grandfather's older brother, Andrew) returned home to Kalsa in 1922 during a 16 month miner's strike. Jozef was born in 1921 and doesn't remember anything about my/his hometown, but when I contacted his son (Ondrej Molnar) they were absolutely astounded! And more importantly, they were deeply grateful.

One of my co-workers happens to have been born in Nitra, Slovakia and came to America in 2001. He helps me with the e-mails and phone calls. He said that most people in the smaller villages especially figure that their American relatives don't want to have anything to do with them! They figure the Americans will think their European cousins will want to borrow money, since everyone in America is filthy, stinking rich! I know it's not true, but stereotypes in the rural areas are hard to break.

Father is right--keep in contact with them. Find someone to translate and send letters, e-mails, money if you can and don't stop. They will be so grateful. When my cousin Ondrej and his father Jozef found out I was proud of being Rusyn they nearly fell over! Being Rusyn as considered the second lowest social position you could be--the only thing lower was being Roma (a gypsy). And when they found out I was Greek-Catholic and intererested in the church my grandfather went to, they almost blew a gasket. My cousin Ondrej said after our first phone call he couldn't sleep all night. He said he felt like a little kid at Christmas. And they were especially impressed by my wanted to help their church.

Keep in tough with the churches there. You can find a list of them quite easily. I'm sure they would be happy to know they are not forgotten. If you can't find a list of the churches, let me know, I can send you some links.

Tim

In case you do run into people who regard America as a vast inexhaustible cornucopia, here's a tip from a friend who always keeps up contact with the Old Country:

if they ask for luxuries, send or not, as you please - but if they ask for medicine, never refuse. Just establish early on that you can neither purchase nor send medicine without the appropriate documentation from a licensied physician in the destination country.

As to the feeling of shame at the Rusyn identity - that's understandable: belong to a stateless ethnos is not easy and the temptation to assimilate to the majority is strong.

Fr. Serge

Bless your heart tim 199 !!!

"As to the feeling of shame at the Rusyn identity - that's understandable: belong to a stateless ethnos is not easy and the temptation to assimilate to the majority is strong."

I've heard that some of the immigrants who knew they were Rusyn delierately told the people at Ellis Island they were Hungarians or Ukrainians, since they felt they were starting a new life in America, they might as well start a new life! My grandfather was asked if he wanted to change his name when he came through Ellis Island in 1905. Molnar means "Miller" in Hungarian. He said no, that's ok. It was good enough for his father and his father before that, he'll keep it. But he almost did change it "Mlynar" which is Miller in Rusyn. My father said my grandfather said he wasn't ashamed of his being Rusyn. He just said "I'm here for a new life and I'm just as good as anyone else."

I wish I had known my stara otec! He and I would have gotten along well, I think.

Tim

[quote=tjm199I've heard that some of the immigrants who knew they were Rusyn delierately told the people at Ellis Island they were Hungarians or Ukrainians, [/quote]

And many, many of them identified themselves as "Austrians" which was probably more or less correct since they were represented at that time by the Austrian Embassy in the US.

Excuse me, you are absolutely correct. It was the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time, even if there was a large split between the Hungarian side of the family and the Austrian side. So many ethnicites to choose from. All technically correct since Rusyns were spread out all over that part of Europe.

Thank you for the correction

Tim

but for us , who are the children of this beutifull land is not problem to differ hungarian and ruthenian /ukrainian/

when I see Ellis Island lists it is not difficult for me to see them by surname and birthplace

Serge - Being lonely is never good. Do you have any suggestions on how we can better communicate with the Rusyns/Ukrainians of Eastern Slovakia.

Here are some pictures of President Yuschenko of Ukraine visiting the Lemkos during their annual 'Vatra' (Bonfire) event held in the Carpathian mountains of Eastern Poland. He visited both the Polish Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches while visiting Lemkivshchyna (Lemko Land). Note his little son just loves to be doing whatever papa is doing - the little guy steals every picture.

http://www.president.gov.ua/gallery/album/?paid=785

Would a presidential visit to the Rusyn / Ukrainians of Eastern Slovakia be at all a morale booster ?

I would like to add one sentence about presence of president Yushchenko on Lemko*s Vatra ,
on website of wroclaw-gdansk greek-catholic eparchy /Poland/ were written that Yushchenko was talking to people gathered in Zdynya in lemko dialect
, so people were very astonished and very pleased

here are some pictures from this site :
http://www.cerkiew.net.pl/Wiadomosc...enie=wiad_1185265626&cerkiew=cerkiew
http://www.cerkiew.net.pl/Wiadomosc...enie=wiad_1185202086&cerkiew=cerkiew

I am no expert on the reception process at Ellis Island, but I can't help but wonder if the folks running the show would have always known what to do with a "Rusyn"

"Where are you from?"

"Austria-Hungary"

"So are you Austrian or Hungarian?"

"Rusyn"

"Rusyn? Doesn't sound German..... must be a type of Hunky! Hungarian you are then!"

"Can I be an American now, I just had an AWFULLY long boat ride and would like to take a shower"

"Sure thing Hungarian!"

"Whatever."

There are a lot of misconceptions flowing around here.

There were folks at Ellis Island who spoke the languages of the immigrants (research has changed the old conventional wisdom that surnames were changed there willy nilly).

The choice for nationality by the immigrants included "Russniak," which tended to be both Ukrainians and Rusyns from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Look at censuses from 1910 and 1920 and you'll find various identities, but I don't see much in the way of Ukrainian.

The Ukrainian identity was just not as widespread at the height of the immigrant flood pre-World War I as it would become. And the concept of Rusyn-ness was very different, broader and not the local identity it was to become, although there was a sense of a place called "Uhro-Rus,'" or Hungarian Rus'.

Many Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants, coming from the Hungarian-ruled part of Austria-Hungary, used the Hungarian (official) spellings of their names, first names and surnames. They were simply following what they'd been taught.

But, frankly, national consciousness didn't exist in many immigrants in the modern sense. They thought of themselves as Greek Catholics (many would become Orthodox when they got here, but came from a place where Orthodoxy was supressed).... And they thought of themselves as residents of their villages. They were more likely to express a vague Russian identity, although, again, not in the modern sense.

Boyko - Yes that was an amazing moment for the people there. Mrs Yuschenko who as a young woman use to attend Lemko 'Vatra' events here in the USA was also present and I'm sure she was moved also.

Tim - This quote from a longer article may explain where the Ruthenian Metropolia whent wrong and why today it's so difficult to re-connect to your ancestors in Eastern Slovakia and Ukraine:

"I have noted two trends in the early sixties on this continent. On the one hand there are the strong and most recent immigrant groups intent upon preserving the culture, language, customs, and calendar of the homeland and church. On the other, we have groups of priests aware of pastoral responsibilities to the younger generations, and laity expressing the conviction that their future lies in an adaptation of the ritual community to the new Canadian milieu, with the transformation of our Ukrainian Catholic Church into a Byzantine Canadian Church. There were precedents to this way of thinking. The Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches in the fifties and sixties tried to work with several proposed unions of eastern orthodox of varying backgrounds in an Orthodox Church of America. But it is imperative to note the subtle ploy of Constantinople and Moscow in this game, each intent upon establishing its own spheres of influence over these covert unions. And again to the south, our Ruthenian cousins in the United States embarked on this experiment of cultural assimilation in the fifties and sixties; and it seemed to many, because of their initial show of strength and resilience as a faith community, that theirs was the answer. The American Ruthenians, all originating from the Rusyn Church of the Carpathians, included byzantine Greek Catholics of Hungarian, Ukrainian and Ruthenian backgrounds. Supported by political groupings from the homeland, the different ethnic factions of the emigres, especially the Hungarians from the Carpathians jockeyed to establish their individual control over the other groups. The bishops and clergy were convinced that the only solution was to become Church, leaving behind all cultural,patriotic and national overtones and loyalties to their European brothers. It seemed that they were right; for statistically the American Ruthenian Church prided itself on the steady adherence and loyalty of the faithful to their Church. They had combined Catholic faith, their Ruthenian ecclesiastical traditions and the American melting pot. They did not experience initially a need for their Ruthenian (Ukrainian) culture. Some of our Ukrainian Canadian parishes sought to imitate this model, until they began to experience within their own ranks what the Ruthenians discovered in the 1970's in the U.S.A.: the mass exodus of their younger faithful to the American Catholic Church of the Roman rite, or the other Christian churches; and in this last decade, following the wider pattern, a loss of their Christian faith. Up to 1970 the chancery offices would receive hundreds of requests for changes of rite from Ruthenian to Roman; and then of a sudden these numbers leaped to thousands annually. The membership of the Byzantine Catholic Churches began to diminish. They were not renewed by fresh emigrations from the Carpathian eparchies. It was then that the bishops and clergy of the U.S.A. learned that people do not live in an ecclesiastical vacuum. Some of the more active and younger priests began to tap into disaffected Roman Catholics, welcoming them into their parishes, and extending a warm welcome to any and all who found spiritual solace in this new Byzantine American spirituality. But this was not universally accepted by the majority of pastors and many of the faithful nor by the bishops. Nor was it welcomed by the Roman clergy and bishops. Consciously or unconsciously, through these years the faithful had retained some form of identification with their homelands, and it was only those that experienced this, and wanted to discover something of their roots, that remained loyal to the American Ruthenian Church."

Full article can be found here:

http://www.heartofjesus.ca/UkrainianChurch/ukrChurchCanada.htm

How can the Ruthenian USA Metropolia assist the Ruthenians of Slovakia in reclaiming their Rusyn Eparchy ? How can they assit their ancestors in understanding that their ethnicity is not Slovak but Ruthenian ?

PS: Presidnent Yuschenko has two beautiful daughters and the little boy is too cute for words (he loves toy cars).

I.F.

What a surprise! I never thought I would see the day when "Bishop" ROMAN DANYLAK was quoted on an Eastern Catholic site.
Actually, someone pointed him out to me a short while ago while he was walking on Bloor St. West between Runneymede & Jane St. in Toronto. He is unfortunately ill and came home to Toronto.

To people in Southern Ontario, he is still connected with the conflict regarding Bishop Isadore Borecky's forced retirement.

Jean Francois, I have no trouble connecting with the Rusyns of East Slovakia.

I go there regularly, my next trip is in October, and I'll be staying in the village where my father spent his boyhood and my cousins still live..

As for the Byzantine Catholic Church in America, the hierarchy decided some 60 years ago to evolve away from its Carpatho-Rusyn roots into an American Byzantine church.

It no longer has a role to play in the ancestral homeland.

Thanks for the information. I am always seeking information about a number of things, especially this topic. But does anyone actually know the reason the Biships decided to abandon their ethnic roots to become American?

I can understand somewhat--my grandfather came to America in 1905 with two older brothers. My father (the third of 12 kids) was born in 1913. My grandparents could speak broken English only but strongly identified themselves as Rusyn. My father could speak both languages, but in later years it might take him a while to remember the exact word he was looking for. (It really drove us kids nuts at Christmas when they would talk about presents in front of us and we didn't understand that much Rusyn!)

I am the youngest of seven kids. My eldest sibling was born in 1940. I was born in 1960. I can just imagine what it would have been like for someone in the late 1950's or early 60's to bring a "friend" of either gender to a Rusyn Liturgy. The language, the incense, the vestments, etc. So that generation wanted to abandon their ethnicity as fast as possible. To "Americanize" so as not to seem wierd. (Your friend is humming "Hounddog" while you're humming "Svate Boze." That will work!)

Flash forward--I cant' get enough of my heritage. I want so much to be able to honor my grandparents and those that came before and the sacrifices they made.

So I do understand that part. But was there any other reason? Is that possibly the reason we are now faced with an RDL without any Slavonic? I've heard from one perosn involved with the RDL that one of the reasons as far as he can remember is that to put things in English and Slavonic would have made the book too big. Could it be there is a deliberate movement still to "de-ethincise" our Church?

That would be a shame--and also a misake. Ask any church what their biggest fundraiser is. And it isn't Bingo or a "sock hop." It's the Ethnic Festivals. The food, the culture, the dress, the language. People today are embracing diversity and ethnicities. There is a backlash against "Americanization." Pushing the ethnicity is the way to go. Not only will it get people interested in our church, it might help us collect money to help our Rusyn brothers and sisters across the pond.

Tim
ps--and the little Yuschenko boy is adorable! He really does steal the show in those pictures. He's such a cute little towheaded boy!

Sociologists of relatively recent immigrations are aware of what is sometimes called "the phenomenon of the third generation". Roughly, it works like this:

The first generation is working like mad to become established in the new country of residence - pressure to assimilate is particularly strong in the USA.

The second generation prefers to identify simply with the country of their birth (the USA, in this instance). An important step in this is often military service and a sometimes exaggerated patriotism (you've seen The Deer Hunter, I trust.

The third generation begins to realize that something has been lost, and seeks to regain it, at least to a degree.

This is all a tremendous oversimplification, but at least it does point to a genuinely existing behavior pattern. Alas, however, I suspect that the majority of the "third generation" forgets so much of the ancestral heritage - especially when the second generation has entered into marriages outside the ethnic group - that apart from quiet nostalgia, the call of the Old Country goes unheard.

And yet, as Fr Andrew Greeley points out, in spite of lots of appearances to the contrary, the American Irish never really got tamed at all!

Fr. Serge

The decision to become a church that was Byzantine and American (rather than Greek Catholic and Rusyn/Ruthenian) was clearly a strategic one designed to resuscitate a dying ethnic club.

The church in North America was almost destroyed by St. Alexis Toth's move (or return) to Orthodoxy... The split of the Greek Catholic church into separate Ukrainian and Rusyn structures in the second decade of the 20th Century took a toll... the celibacy crisis of the 1920s and '30s created a second move of parishes and faithful to Orthodoxy.

Add to that the strong wave of assimilation in the 1940s, sped up by World War II, when lots of our young men went off to war and learned to live outside their ethnic communities, and there was little hope for the survival of the traditional church.

Clearly two very different decisions were made by the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic hierarchies. The Ukrainian church focused on being a bastion of Ukrainian identity, while the Rusyn church turned away from its roots.

Frankly, neither strategy has resulted in vigorous church structures.

I believe there is a Jewish quote that sums up neatly what we both said. But, of course, for the life of me I just can't remember exactly how it goes. Early onset alzheimers.

So you read Father Greeley as well? As a fellow Irishman, I can understand that. What are your thoughts on his observations about the Roman Catholic Church? A private e-mail will do nicely if you prefer. I found his book "Making of the Pope 2005" most interesting. I understand it is one person's perspective only, but it certainly was enlightening.

Tim

The phrase: "Take the grease out of the Greek Catholic and the stink out of the onion dome" comes to mind.

Now where have I heard that before...

Orest - I'm sorry to inform you that it was not only in Southern Ontario that Bishop Danylak's actions were very poorly viewed. The vast majority of UGCC members of the Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada, including people from parishes in Cape Breton (Nova Scotia), Montreal, and even far North Val d'Or and Rouyn-Noranda (Quebec) wanted Bishop Danylak removed for what he did to the late Bishop Isidor Boretskyj. The Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada bestowed in the name of the President of Ukraine a high honor on Kir Isore for his work to the UGCC. Kir Isidor died a few months later. I hope that Bishop Danylak seeks the forgiveness for his past behavior before he dies. If you see bishop Danylak walking in Toronto, please forward him this web site and ask him to read this thread. Thanks.

Tim - I'm glad to hear that you are keeping up your ties with the old country. However, you are wrong to state that your bishops have had no relations with Carpatho-Ukraine and Eastern Slovakia for over 60 years. My Slovak is even more rusty than my Rusyn but if you read this article which is posted on the Slovak Byzantine Catholic Eparchy in Presov, you will notice that the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan has had recent contact with the Bishops of Eastern Slovakia and Carpatho-Ukraine. They also tell me there is a picture of him somewhere on this web site sitting in the 'Kathedra' of Presov.

You can read more here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=byzantine+forum&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7DMUS

Also, I noticed that at least one of the late bishop Dudick of the Pittsburgh Ruthenian Metropolia had a great interest the Eparchies of Presov (Slovakia) and Mukachevo (Ukraine).

You can read more here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=byzantine+forum&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7DMUS

Contrary to what you state Tim, it appears that your bishops are in communication with those of Eastern Slovakia and Carpatho-Ukraine. Perhaps you should work with them on a solution to returning the Presov Eparchy to it's Ruthenian 'owners'.

Tim - you also said:

"The church in North America was almost destroyed by St. Alexis Toth's move (or return) to Orthodoxy... The split of the Greek Catholic church into separate Ukrainian and Rusyn structures in the second decade of the 20th Century took a toll... the celibacy crisis of the 1920s and '30s created a second move of parishes and faithful to Orthodoxy."

The Ukrainian Church had the very same forces working against it in both the USA and Canada (by the way, you forgot to mention those people who left for Socialism / Communism - a big force in Canada). Yet contrary to what you state, the Ukrainian church is much stronger and could double or even triple in size on this continent if it's bishops were to give the order to recruit non-ethnic Ukrainians (by the way, the church is open to non-Ukrainians).

The difference between the two churches lies in what happened between the wars in the old country - which was a process of Ukrainianization of the Ruthenian people while they were still living in the Czechoslovak Republic. The post WW2 Ruthenian immigrants to North America were generaly very pro-Ukrainian and to a large extent negated the very raison d'etre of the USA Ruthenian Church. This is the main reason why the Ruthenian Metropolia moved away from it's roots - because most of the roots turned into Rusyn-Ukrainians.

I.F.

Uh, I never said they have no contact. I said they have no role to play in the ancestral homeland.... especially on ethnic matters, since they proclaim no ethnic identity.

Father Greeley was of more interest in his proper work as a sociologist - his attempts to analyze the Church are not particularly impressive, though they are often depressing. The Taming of the American Irish is perhaps his best work (the poetess with whom the book concludes reminds me poignantly of my mother).

Even where the Irish are concerned, he misses several crucial matters - such as the language, the rather strange role of Irish bishops in the USA (and the strange alliance between the Catholic Hierarchy in Ireland and the Ascendancy).

Still my money is on his conclusion - we still haven't been tamed!

On another matter, the whole affair of Msgr. Roman Danylak indicated a severe crisis in ecclesiology and an equally severe crisis in the understanding of the nature of the episcopate (the two, of course, are closely related). It is much more to the point to address those crises than to discuss Msgr. Danylak personally.

A seemingly peripheral issue was to stimulate the involvement of the Ecumenical Patriarch: Msgr. Danylak was styled "Bishop of Nyssa". Constantinople took grave umbrage, since that see (which was not vacant at the time, incidentally) belongs to the Patriarchate of Rome and therefore is not in the Pope's gift.

Fr. Serge

I am a little confused. Can you explain why it is you find this puzzling?

Have you found the posting here to be so partisan and exclusionary (never mind the Orthodox participation and moderation) that you find mention of Bp. Danylak odd?

Also, what is with the quotations around the term "Bishop"?

Sorry for my slow response. I did not notice there was a question directed to me specifically.
To answer:
1) I found it odd that someone would quote an article written by Bishop Danylak on this forum because from my limited understanding he appears to be a bit of a pariah in the Ukrainian Catholic community.
My interpretation or reaction to a quote by Bishop Danylak has nothing to do with the administration of this forum which I find to be very, very fair. I do regret the departure of some Orthodox participation and the avalance of recent Roman Catholic posters who do seem to be a little unbending and not open to discussion as well as introducing topics that have little to do with Eastern Christianity. Howver, as I have said the moderaters are doing a great job.
2) I put "bishop" in quotations marks, because the vast majority of the Ukrainian Catholic Toronto and Eastern Canadian eparchy did not want him to be their bishop.

A bishop is supposed to be Bishop of Somewhere. Msgr Danylak was ordained with the title "Bishop of Nyssa", which was not vacant at the time (nor is it vacant now, so far as I know), so that title lacked any reality. He acted as "Apostolic Administrator sede plena" of Toronto and Eastern Canada, but that throne also was not vacant.

As Yves Congar put it "Bishop of Where"?

Fr. Serge

Thanks Fr. Serge for adding that item. I am not Ukrainian Catholic myself so I do not know all the details.

Father Serge, bless a humble deacon.

You are totally correct. On my recent visit to Slovinky the people accepted me as a brother and son, for which I am extremely grateful. Father Vladimir Varga and I had some conversations (through an interpreter) which I will cherish the rest of my life. I am raising funds to help with the cost of restoring the iconostas in my grandparents' church.

The core group which built the parish of my youth a century ago (and one of the parishes where I serve) were from Slovinky and the nearby village of Helcmanovce. I am proposing that we become "sister" churches. Its an idea borrowed from an area Roman Catholic parish who adopted a "sister" parish in Mexico. That was done (as far as I know) for humanitarian reasons, not because of any personal relationships; our bond is much stronger.

I would guess that at least half of the GC parishes in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy have the same relationship with a mother village. If that's the case in your parish, get together with others whose ancestors came from a common village, then make a contact. It's not easy if you don't know Rusyn or Slovak, but I may be able to help in a limited way. I have a very detailed map with the smallest of villages and will try to give you an address or phone number (sorry, email addresses are extremely hard to find.)

In the Sykesville parish, I held a presentation on the highlights of my trip, I will post pictures on the bulletin board with a map. I'm still waiting for video. I've piqued the interest of a good core group and hope that we can succeed.

For those who don't have such a good situation, www.missionboronyavo.org [missionboronyavo.org] is a good charity which is helping the Greek Catholic Church in Transcarpathia, Slovakia and Hungary.

Our Archeparchy has an East European Aid collection each year to help our mother eparchies. There appear to be very open communications between our American Church and the Mother Church.
Bishop Dudick of blessed memories donated the vestments and memorabilia of Blessed Bishop Gojdic and Hopko to the Presov museum and they are on display there.
The "separation" of the European and American Churches was due mostly to the persecution and isolation by the Communists; not a policy by our American bishop (except possibly by the predecessor of Archbishop Judson.)

The church in Europe needs as much of our help as we can provide, prayers, friendship and funds. Unless they can expand their missionary activity into the cities they will face the same decline as the American Church. They are a rural church; our people are village people, not city people, but the young are emigrating to the cities, just as we experienced. Greek Catholic churches are rare in the cities. If there is a Roman Catholic church near their home, that is where they will go. My english interpreter said "Its the same." (Roman and Greek). Haven't we all heard that way too many times here in America? The people have already assimilated into Slovaks; the next step is Roman Catholic.

That is why we must be in solidarity with them, to give them all the support that we can. Father Vlad told me that the American Conference of Catholic Bishops donated cars to each of our pastors in Slovakia. If the (mostly) RC bishops can be so charitable, why can't we?

Fr. Deacon Paul

The above quote reminds me of what is written on the life of Blessed Basil Hopko in the Byzantine Leaflet Series (#41):

Was Bishop Hirka involved in this malicious campaign against Blessed Basil?
I would find it very saddening and scandalous if it were true.
I wonder how he feels now about his actions in light of Blessed Basil having been locally glorified/beatified.

I also find it saddening that the Holy See did not appoint Blessed Basil as Eparch. Was it due to the "Slovak campaign" or was there some other reason for the decision?

Holy Confessor Basil, pray for us!

Father Deacon Paul,

You said:

"For those who don't have such a good situation, www.missionboronyavo.org [missionboronyavo.org] is a good charity which is helping the Greek Catholic Church in Transcarpathia, Slovakia and Hungary."

For those who are not aware, Transcarpathia is one of the most Western regions of Ukraine (modern Rusyn nation)and it borders on both Slovakia and Hungary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

Perhaps there are more members of the Ruthenian (American) Church who wish to help by supporting the rights of the Rusyns (and Ukrainians) in Slovakia ? If the bishops do not wish to identify themselves as Ruthenian, maybe the clergy and members of the church wish to defend the rights of the Rusyns ? Perhaps it's time to ask your bishops to put the Rusyn back into the Pittburgh Metropolia ?

By the way, you may want to ask your local Ukrainian Catholic priest to help you learn Rusyn. With a bit of practice you will be able to communicate perfectly with the Rusyn people.

I.F.

Dear G.C.

It appears that the Slovaks continue in 2007 to Slovakize the Rusyn / Ukrainian minority from whom they 'stole' the see.

I.F.

Dears Brothers and Sisters in Christ!

Thanks God, that Byzantine Catholic Church is universal from its very beginnings, otherwise we would not be here at this forum. Ss. Cyril and Methodius understood this correctly, and I think, that we have to be open to embrace anyone, and keep our Church as it is - preserving our unique and awesome rite, but not to make from Church a social, or one ethnic group club.

Pray one for another, instead of wasting time with revolutionary ideas...:)

Prayer is a real power.

May the Lord bless all of you - as the Church is not Hebrew, niether Greek, nor Rusyn, but UNIVERSAL

WOW. And I thought Orthodox Church politics were byzantine...

Nice try,trying to whitewash the use of the word "Moskal." You'll forgive me if I don't buy it.Get used to it,eh? Why don't you tell African Americans to get used to the "N" word.You know in Polish the word for "Pole" is "Polak",but to say "Polack" in English is considered derogatory.Better yet,why don't you refer to Archimandrite Serge as a "Paddy"?Maybe you think that I'm some kid who just finished the Seminary?Actually,I've been a priest for over 30 years.The irony here is that I've just resigned my ROCOR parish and priestly service because I wouldn't accept the ROCOR-MP union. BTW,apologists for this union say,among other things,that they want to "crush" the Ukrainian Catholic Church.If you want to attack any "Moskal" not Russian patriots.Another irony,my last name is Russian,but I'm more Ukrainian than Russian, and actually consider my self to be an American citisen of Scottish origen and Orthodox religion.