www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What could it be?

Hello!
I'd like to ask if anyone here knows what could be that thing on pics I post here:
[Linked Image] [imajr.com]
[Linked Image] [imajr.com]

What is it for? It is able to open, 4cm x 4cm. If anyone can tell me what is on this pics - I will be grateful!

Dear Daeg,

It seems to be a 'Philakto'. Basically something that held a 'relic' or some holy oil, etc., and was meant to protect the wearer. I believe I see a cross on it, but I'm not sure. It might be a medieval one, probably from the crusaders.

Now I'm just guessing! I know a relative of mine that was married to a man from the island of Paros in Greece. He had something similar but much bigger. Actually it was about three inches. He believed it contained a piece of the true cross, but as I read, if everything that contains a part of the true cross throughout the world were to be collected, it would make a whole forest.

I admired it, and was quite envious that he would have something that came down like that from generation to generation. Later on I saw the exact same piece, (I believe in the Metropolitan Museum of Art), and it was from the Middle Ages.

When I was in Istanbul about 25 years ago, I noticed a peddlar selling some religious artifacts. I looked at them and liked a certain piece. The sweet peddlar told me not to buy that one, but to buy another piece that was quite a mess. He kept insisting that the one I was looking at was not real, so realizing he had nothing to gain, I bought the one he said.

Well after scraping off all the tarnish, (painstaking work), and cleaning it, it became a beautiful triptich. So in order to stop those that kept laughing at me, thinking I was duped, I took it to the Met Museum, and she confirmed that it was quite old. Because it was ornate and not more simple, she said it was probably from the early eighteen hundreds. All I could think about was the poor Russian soldier that it might have belonged to, and that died fighting the Turks.

Take it to a museum and have them look at it. It might be a fake, but it probably is real depending on where it came from.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Thank you, Zenovia!
I posted it on other forum and they said it could be "philakto" also. But could it be a part of something bigger? part of chain that you wear on neck? coz it has some loop holes.
What I know is that it had some herbs inside. It belongs to family that emmigrated from Greek island Imvros. This island was taken by Turkey (now it is Gokceada, Turkey).
I thought it could be Greek Orthodox but other said it could be Slavonic! specialy Imvros was in Byzantine Imperium.
As I found out (thanks to other people) it's a cross with a spear and reed on sides. The image could be used as seal so maybe letters should be read reversed.
Do you know what could be the meaining of it?
Best regards

Dear Daeg,

If it is brass, and it is very old, I can't help but feel that it might have belonged to a Crusader. It would depend on the style of the cross...or so I think. If it's square, it would be Greek or Byzantine. If it has a bar at the bottom it would be Russian, or for that matter it could be Serbian or Bulgarian, I don't know what cross they would have...probably the same as Greek. Otherwise it might be Western, and therefore belonged to a Crusader depending on it's age. (Many settled in Greece and the Middle East).

I doubt that any Venetians, Genovese or what not, that were in those lands later on, would have been wearing one. I don't really know though. What I do know is that the one belonging to my relative's husband, did turn out to be something that would have belonged to a crusader. As for the brass triptych I bought in Turkey, it was Russian. It has a Russian cross on the outside.

The philacto that you have, probably had a chain and hung around a person's neck or belt. Find an Orthodox priest and see what the symbolism might mean. As for the herbs, it might be basil from the Holy Land, and/or simply some dipped in holy water.

Imvros I believe, is the island that the theological school of Halkis is located and the people are very devout. This is the school that Turkey has promised to open, but so far has not done so. Your best bet is to find a Greek Orthodox priest, tell him it's from Imvros, and to explain the symbolism, etc. Once you know that, then try to find out the age from a museum.

God Bless, and let us know as to the outcome.

Zenovia

Dear Zonovia,
you are really a big help
There is many guestion marks still, but I will try to find out what I can. I think it could take some time coz I don't know when could I go with it to the museum or priest.

Will you accept me copy your words on forum I talked about before? Or just put link to topic?
OrthodoxChristianity.net [orthodoxchristianity.net]

God bless

Dear Daeg,

You can copy my words anywhere you wish. I'm glad I could be of help.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Hello again!
Dear Zenovia, can I have a big request?
Would you be able to get photo of such "philakto" that belongs to your relatives' husband?
Maybe then I could compare looks of both and see the image clearly?

Thank you again

Dear Daeg,

No I live quite far from them, and haven't seen anyone in that family for over 20 years.

It was brass though, and about three inches square. Much larger than yours. I do recall that I later saw one exactly like it in a museum...probably the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It came down from the Middle Ages, and as far as I can tell, it probably belonged to some crusader knight. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that I was correct in my assumption that it was a Western artifact.

Being Greek, I know that most of our 'philakta' are usually made of cloth and embroidered with a cross. Also, we tend to have painted icons on wood as religious treasures rather than brass one's.

Of course that doesn't mean that what you have might not be Byzantine. Tell me, what kind of cross is on it? Is it square, long, or could it be a Russian one? I can't see it very clearly. I do notice though that it is plain. If it is long, rather than square, then it would probably be Roman.

Can you describe what's on the back?

God Bless,

Zenovia

OK, I understand, I just had some small hope it could work

yes, I know that family also had some religious icons, but it got destroyed by time but later I will post image of icons from Imvros island, maybe you could tell me if you saw such icons before.


Please look at image of that "philakto", can you see spear and reed? between them there is image of the cross, it's abit worn out so you can't see it clearly, but it's in the middle of sqaure, it's long. I don't know what kind of cross is it coz I'm ignorant about Orthodox or Byzantine...

here I post photo from site Destroyed icons [hellenicgenocide.org], it's about icons from Imvros, it was destroyed by Turkish.
[Linked Image] [imajr.com]

Please tell me did you see icons look exactly as this destroyed (sure before they were destroyed) ? Maybe it could help to know it was Byzantine art or Greek Orthodox?

Dear Daeg,

It seems from what I can tell, that the cross on the philacto is Latin. If it's old it might be from a crusader. The family might have had it from a descendant, or it might have been found in the ground or in the sea from a sunken ship. I don't know of Greek one's, but then again I might be wrong. It seems that there were similar things being sold by the Turkish peddlar that sold me the brass tryptich, so I really don't know. (Those things were fakes).

As for the icons, all icons are similar in some respects. You haven't told me what is on the back of the philacto. It seems quite fancy.

When we refer to something as Byzantine, we mean the Eastern Roman Empire. It refers to the time after the sixth century when the Romans began speaking Greek instead of Latin in Constantinople. The name Byzantine comes from the original Greek colony called Vyzantio, where Constantine built his new Rome.

The Byzantine Empire continued until the Ottomans Turks took over Constantinople in the fifteenth century. After that, we would refer to the Christians living in those lands as Greeks, since they spoke Greek.

In the Middle Ages, parts of the Byzantine Empire was conquered and controlled by the Franks. They were there for quite some time.

Now tell me, where did you get the philacto? Is any of the members of the family still alive? If they are, it might have a sentimental value to them. Otherwise, I don't think that the monetary value would be very high...depending of course on the condition, quality and age. It would be a museum piece though.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Thank you for the info again
It belongs to the member of family, it was given from father to son through generations and it has a sentimental value as you say, but we just want to solve the riddle what it could be and how old and so on...

I notice the rings (broken) at top, sides, and bottom.

Seeing them makes me thing it was (worn?) suspended in the center of some 'web' thing.

I notice three rings at bottom indicating that what was below was more substantial than what was attached to the sides.

Very interesting. Do keep up updated.

That is funny as the A and K (alpha kappa) do looked reversed on the left side. And is that really a delta with the bottom rubbed away on the right side? The other letters look normal. (?).

You say there were herbs inside? perhaps some local university that has an agricultural department might be able to tell you what they were - for free. A challenge for the students.


On the front (?) that appears to be Christ in a typical pose.

Front and back have details worn smooth. Does that indicate it was sandwiched between something that moved a lot (shirt and coat?).

-ray

Dear Ray,

Since it is probably a philacto, (I can't imagine what else it would be), it would have to contain something holy. I recall when visiting the Holy Land that I was told that a certain spot was the place where Basil miraculously had first appeared...I believe it was at the time of the resurrection. He said before that it didn't exist. In other words, it was a holy plant, and the very name Basil means 'king'.

Basil is usually used to sprinkle holy water, and because of this I can only assume that the herbs are probably Basil and maybe from the Holy Land.

I can't see it very well, but from what I gathered, the top might be the opening mechanism. It seems the sides are where the chain would have been attached, and probably worn on a belt or hung from the neck. The bottom would have been the hinge.

Because it is basically primitive, the latch and hinge would be very large in proportion to what they would have been today.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Dear Daeg,

I was thinking about it, and because the condition is so bad, I can't help but wonder if one of the ancestors of the family had found it in the ground, or maybe in the sea? In that case they would consider it holy, since it appeared in a way miraculously.

Otherwise, it might have become damaged because it might have been worn in a war, and considered sacred as having saved some ancestors life. Too bad they don't know the story behind it.

I would suggest that you take some pictures, and either get on a web site that goes into medieval things, or send the picture to the Medieval department of the Metropolitan Museum. You can also find someone that collects medieval artifacts, there must be so many. You don't have to tell them that it is not for sale.

Try to find a German Museum or collector on the web.. They might be into these things more, and have a better knowledge of how old, and who it would have belonged to. Keep in touch. You've made me curious.

God Bless,

Zenovia