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Originally Posted by lanceg
Finally, anytime I have come close to joining the Orthodox, I have had either Orthodox lay people or priest caution me that they are dealing with frustrations too, either of the same nature or a different nature.
You are correct in everything you have written here. The RDL is not the sole reason I am leaving--I have expressed some of my other reasons but that is not for this particular forum. I asked you the question because you seemed to equate the sectarianism of the multiple divisions within protestantism with the different jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church. My apologies if I misunderstood.

Having said that, I believe that modernism is today's heresy and the RDL skirts the boundaries of modernism. Will I say that it is heretical? No, not at this point. I am not looking for a perfect Church. It does not exist. There are scandals everywhere. Mankind is in a fallen state. But I am looking for Divine Liturgy where I can worship in peace. Where I can pray with the angels and saints without worrying about what "the world" thinks. Many of us have problems with the revision--some more than others.

P.S--Something dawned on me the other day. The Ruthenian Catholic Church has instructed me to read about the Orthodox saints and Church Fathers (and Mothers). They have recommended writings on Orthodox theology. I have been given books on Church history from the Orthodox perspective. Yet they tell me, "Do not become Orthodox, they are schismatics"!

What am I missing here?


Last edited by Recluse; 07/20/07 12:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Recluse
P.S--Something dawned on me the other day. The Ruthenian Catholic Church has instructed me to read about the Orthodox saints and Church Fathers (and Mothers). They have recommended writings on Orthodox theology. I have been given books on Church history from the Orthodox perspective. Yet they tell me, "Do not become Orthodox, they are schismatics"!

What am I missing here?

I started a thread to respond to this here.

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The thread above asks for books or resources by, for, or about Eastern Catholics.

I've started another thread here to respond to how Eastern Catholics can be Orthodox without becoming Orthodox.

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Dear Fr David,

Thank you for your reply.

My schedule has been a bit erratic as of late and I've fallen a bit behind on the Forum, but I hope to reply to your comments soon.

_____
Neutiquam erro.

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Recluse,

Be assured from my perspective, the differing Orthodox jurisdictions are not the same as sectarianism in Protestantism. If that were the case, we Eastern Catholics would be guilty of that charge, too.

I am not sure how to answer your question about having books recommended to you, and being told at the same time, they are written by "schismatics."

I was on the radio today on the local Relevant Radio station with a fellow parishioner to speak about the Byzantine faith and the upcoming Dormition. I stated that if we Byzantine Catholics are doing our job right, anyone who comes into our worship service should not discern any difference between us and the Orthodox. In fact, in my view, the only thing that should tip a visitor off that we are Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that we pray "for our Holy Father, Benedict, the Pope of Rome." I went on to recommend the Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov, who is right now my favorite theologian.

I honestly do not see much difference between Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox. We have the same substance of faith and theological expression. In my mind, union with Peter is the only difference.

I am not unaware of difficulties, and I know many, both Catholic and Orthodox will disagree with me. But that is where I am at personally.

Blessings,

Lance

Last edited by lanceg; 07/21/07 04:53 AM.
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I'm not going to say I disgree with you. It sounds reasonable to me. The big question, of course, is how do we do that? The most simple response may not be that easy to implement. Anyone who thinks EVERY decision made by every priest, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope or Patriarch is due solely to the influence of the Holy Spirit is kidding themselves. That ole' devil politics is involved in many ways. Which is why I say the most simple way of implementing the most simple and obvious plan to achieve your goal will not be the easiest way to do it.

But heck, that's just my opinion.

Tim

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Quote
I wish opposition to the new translation would refrain from being �ad hominem,� hence I post with great caution.

But perhaps not without enough caution. I would have thought you should have said that the opposition to the new translation was "ad feminam." Nonetheless I understood exactly what you meant!

I am confident, however, that the feminists will attempt to rid the English language of "ad hominem." Or will they?

Has anyone noticed if the discrimination against women in the Byzantine world has decreased since the institution of the "restored" Divine Liturgy which has left out all those sexist references?

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Originally Posted by lanceg
Recluse,

Be assured from my perspective, the differing Orthodox jurisdictions are not the same as sectarianism in Protestantism. If that were the case, we Eastern Catholics would be guilty of that charge, too.

I am not sure how to answer your question about having books recommended to you, and being told at the same time, they are written by "schismatics."

I was on the radio today on the local Relevant Radio station with a fellow parishioner to speak about the Byzantine faith and the upcoming Dormition. I stated that if we Byzantine Catholics are doing our job right, anyone who comes into our worship service should not discern any difference between us and the Orthodox. In fact, in my view, the only thing that should tip a visitor off that we are Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that we pray "for our Holy Father, Benedict, the Pope of Rome." I went on to recommend the Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov, who is right now my favorite theologian.

I honestly do not see much difference between Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox. We have the same substance of faith and theological expression. In my mind, union with Peter is the only difference.

I am not unaware of difficulties, and I know many, both Catholic and Orthodox will disagree with me. But that is where I am at personally.

Blessings,

Lance
May God bless you and your family and friends!

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Originally Posted by lanceg
I stated that if we Byzantine Catholics are doing our job right, anyone who comes into our worship service should not discern any difference between us and the Orthodox. In fact, in my view, the only thing that should tip a visitor off that we are Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that we pray "for our Holy Father, Benedict, the Pope of Rome."

As you say, if we are doing our job right, that's exactly the way it should be. And that is what the Pope has urged us to do. Unfortunately, for the most part, that guidance is not being followed, and the RDL is proof of that.

Timothy

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"Ad hominem."
One should take care in comparing the use of words in different languages. "Homo" in Latin means a human being as opposed to angels or animals. "Vir" means a man as opposed to a woman. Thus, translating "homo" into English as the generic term "man" does not correspond to the exact range of the word in Latin. The trouble in English is that while "man" can mean, in context, all human beings, in its range of meaning it can also be ambiguous. I went to eat at the Red Lobster restaurant, and had to use the rest room. There were two, one was labeled "Men," and the other "Women." So we see here that the range of meaning is different in English.

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"So we see here that the range of meaning is different in English."

If at that same restaurant an angry man-eating lion ran in through the doors, I'll bet both men and women would run out its way! No ambiguity there!

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Originally Posted by Father David
I went to eat at the Red Lobster restaurant, and had to use the rest room. There were two, one was labeled "Men," and the other "Women." So we see here that the range of meaning is different in English.
Alas, finally an explanation for inclusive language. It all makes sense now. We only had to look at the rest rooms at Red Lobster! biggrin

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Ah yes! The famous and oft-repeated "man-eating lion" (or tiger, or whatever)! But (and this may actually have something to do with the development of language) it is quite certain that whether to choose the "men" or "women" door on the rest room is a decision that has been made by many thousands, maybe millions, while I don't know of a "man"-eating lion (or tiger, or whatever) on the loose in the past fifty or maybe even a hundred years. I'd be glad to know of any instances in anglophone countries.

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I have heard that there are universal rest rooms where men and women share the same facilities. I am wondering what the sign says: Maybe it simply says, "rest room".

But it would be quite appropriate if it said: "Mankind". smile

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Glory to Thee, O Lover of Mankind!

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Originally Posted by Father David
Ah yes! The famous and oft-repeated "man-eating lion" (or tiger, or whatever)! But (and this may actually have something to do with the development of language) it is quite certain that whether to choose the "men" or "women" door on the rest room is a decision that has been made by many thousands, maybe millions, while I don't know of a "man"-eating lion (or tiger, or whatever) on the loose in the past fifty or maybe even a hundred years. I'd be glad to know of any instances in anglophone countries.

Not to belabor the scenario but the point is that the proper decision on meaning, a choice of restrooms as "a decision that has been made by many thousands, maybe millions," would also be made in the situation of a cage with a door and the sign stating "Man-eating Animal Inside". Would the female subset of the restroom crowd get the meaning, or would they venture in?

But more to the point, what is the proper meaning of the word "man" in the creed when we say "and he became man"? How is it intended and how are we to understand it as English speakers? Only as the restroom crowd understands it or as the being-eaten crowd understands it?

Dn. Anthony

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